In this episode, Bart speaks with longtime THG consultant and Professor of Voice, Acting, and Performance Research at Concordia University, Noah Drew, about the deep connection between presence, performance, and leadership. Noah shares how his journey through theatre and voice work shaped his understanding of what presence really means, and why it matters for both actors and leaders.
Bridging his work in theatre and leadership development, Noah introduces the Presence Triangle. He breaks down the three points of the triangle: the inner experience of the speaker, the outer awareness of the audience, and the material at hand, and explains why great communicators stay attuned to all three. Along the way, he offers practical ways to assess your own presence, strengthen it, and show up more fully and authentically in the moments that matter.
Whether you're preparing for a high-stakes presentation or simply want to be more intentional in everyday interactions, this conversation will help you lead with greater clarity, connection, and presence.
For those who want to explore the ideas Noah mentions in more depth, you can read writings from the Fitzmaurice Institute here: https://www.fitzmauriceinstitute.org/writings
00:32 Show Intro
01:12 Introducing Noah Drew
02:26 Why should people in the government and corps care about theatre training?
02:44 Theatre is an artform that is about commanding people's attention
03:47 What theatre experiences stood out to you?
03:59 Joining a youth theatre company
05:30 Did you know that you wanted to pursue theatre?
06:57 Professional clowning?
07:51 Bart asks: what is "presence"?
08:21 Presence has 2 sides
09:10 Defining presence
10:03 What does it mean to inspire others?
10:24 That's what great leaders do
12:25 Stagecraft makes people want to pay attention
14:26 How do actors learn to develop presence? The Presence Triangle
17:34 Continuous electric dance of attention
21:02 "What you resist, persists"
21:34 Bart brings it back to the realities of leaders and managers
22:45 If you're not in the habit, the pressure will make it even harder
25:11 The pressure that comes from the attention of others
25:28 Advice to people to be ready when the attention is on them
26:12 Bart gets an assessment and coaching!
28:34 How can people self-assess their Presence Triangle?
30:58 How to develop your weakest point of the Presence Triangle
31:21 How to develop inner awareness
33:44 Pushing yourself out of your comfort zone
35:51 Early childhood experiences often shape these challenges
36:34 Belief in the material
37:21 The time spent to shape your material is worth it
38:32 Bart shares his experiences as a speechwriter
40:24 It's a "practice" of presence
42:11 How can people follow up on these ideas?
42:28 Fitzmaurice Institute
42:54 Saul Kotzubei
43:29 Thank Yous
43:50 Show Outro
Noah Drew: And that's what great leaders do. They kind of ignite excitement and passion and enthusiasm and clarity in others. And so that quality of having presence, you know, the superficial effect of it is, wow, that person is impressive in some way. But the deeper thing is they're kind of calling us towards something.
They're, they're moving us to, to pay attention to what they're paying attention to with more of ourselves.
Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, bar Al Presidents and CEO of the Humphrey Group, and if you've ever asked yourself, how can you develop an authentic leadership presence, or how can you tell stories that.
Have people hanging off every word. Well, then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life. So my guest on today's episode of the Inspire Podcast is Noah Drew. And Noah is not just an associate professor.
You're a full professor now, uh, at the University of Concordia. In theater, he is holds the, uh, I think you, you characterizes the dubious distinction of one of the only people to serve a full three-year term as chair of the theater department. Um, and you've also got over a decade of experience working with our clients at the Humphrey Group.
So, Noah, welcome to the podcast.
Noah Drew: Thanks, Brian. Happy to be here.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, I'm happy to have you. And I think when we were talking about, um, you know, having you on and for those listening, my, my voice is not my usual podcasting voice. I'm, I'm battling through something, but the show must go on in theater and it must go on in podcasting.
There we go. But we, you know, I want to want to bring you on because we've done some really neat work in the investor relations space with our clients, uh, where really we've approached that and other client work through the lens of theater. Mm-hmm. And you've brought. Um, that lens to helping clients prepare, uh, for these kind of command performances in the way that's authentic and genuine.
And so anyone listening, uh, I, I think can benefit from your wisdom, your insights into really what you can learn from a theater director, a of either teachers wisdom. So why should people in the corporate world, in government. Care about theater for theirs in, in what it takes to be inspirational. Sure.
Noah Drew: I mean, the bottom line for me is that theater is an art form that's fundamentally about commanding people's attention.
In a way that makes them feel like something really meaningful is happening right here in the here and now. And that's what a good communicator does if they're speaking from the stage, especially like in what you call the kind of command performance, or even just in an informal setting, you know, presenting an idea in a meeting or something when all eyes are on you, if you're able to kind of step up.
And communicate in a way that really makes it feel like, oh, this isn't just information. This isn't just, you know, somebody speaking their talking points, but this is actually something is happening right now. It can make all the difference in the world in terms of memorability and in terms of impact.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, and I think that's, that's what people are after now is having that ability to connect and have people say, this matters. So, yeah. We'll, we'll come back to that, but I want to go, go back in time. When did you first experience that yourself in your life, in theater? Like, was there, is there one performance you went to?
Was there one moment that stood out?
Noah Drew: Yeah, I, I started as a kid and interestingly, my, my biggest initial impressions or early impressions came from performing rather than watching performances. I joined a, a youth theater company, um, when I was, I don't remember nine or something because my best friend who was a few years older than me was doing it.
Okay. And, uh, you know, we just was, would sort of sign up, you know, I did judo, so he did judo, he did youth theater. So I did youth theater. And, um, and so, uh, what I definitely remember from those early experiences is the feeling of. You know, eyes on me, lights are on. There's kind of a special moment. There's a sense of, uh.
You know, don't screw it up. Right. But not, you know, in a, in a way that was a little bit, a little bit nerve wracking, but also really exciting. Hmm. And, and I rem I have really vivid memories of, you know, early audience reactions. Like,
Bart Egnal: and do you remember like some of the performances that these reactions were in?
Noah Drew: Yeah, I remember one that was the sort of comedic moment where I was playing, you know, in some youth theaters. Piece, playing the character, walking on stage, dancing to a little bit of the music, and I figured out I could get a laugh if I swung my hips a certain way. Hmm. And just the pleasure of, oh yeah, that's, that really works.
Or, I remember being in a musical when I was young and, and it was, I was before puberty, so I had quite a high singing voice. Mm-hmm. I was singing a song that had some real high notes and, and I could hear the breath of the audience change. As I was hitting these high notes in the song,
Bart Egnal: Hmm.
Noah Drew: You know, in this pure little boy voice.
Bart Egnal: So those moments, did you know then that you wanted to pursue a life in theater?
Noah Drew: No. No, in fact, so how did you get, how did you get into it then? I, I just kept res stumbling into it honestly. Like I, I thought I always liked writing. I always liked literature. I thought I would do something to do with that.
Then I played around with. Uh, yeah, I mean, I was in youth theater for five years and I, I did, I toured all over British Columbia. I'm from Vancouver. I toured to Montreal for a summer. I toured to Japan for a summer. Mm-hmm. And so those were big experiences, like they would be for any young person getting to travel.
Um, but then I kind of left it behind in my middle and, and older teenage years explored. Psychology and philosophy and English literature when I got to university, but I just kind of kept falling back into it. Took a little acting class here. Oh yeah, this is still really fun. And, and, uh, one way or another I ended up doing about, um, I ended up doing two undergraduate degrees, uh, but one of them was in theater with a focus on acting.
Bart Egnal: And then you did, you doubled down, you did the masters as well? I did.
Noah Drew: I did. I, I mean, I was still, you know, I was committed, but committed to more than one thing. My, my other simultaneous undergraduate degree was in English literature. Mm-hmm. And music composition. And then coming outta that, I worked in, in professional theater just as a freelancer for about eight, eight years.
Mm-hmm. Before doing the Masters. Mm-hmm. Um. Working in all kinds of ways in theater, some acting, some directing, some writing, some sound design and music composition, some stage managing. I clowned and was paid for it. Yeah. You were a clown. You were a professional clown. Yeah. Here and there. Yeah. What's the key to successful clowning?
Well, actually. Presence and vulnerability. Huh? So we, you know, we sort of, the common perception of clowning is that it's about tricks. Mm-hmm. And kind of larger than life audacity and silliness. But really good clown in, in a lot of the different clown training traditions in the world. It's really about being caught on the spot.
Hmm. You know, you're just, you are deer in the headlights in a way, and navigating that moment. But with a red nose on your face. Right, right. You know? So you sort of cause your hands there's nowhere to hide. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Bart Egnal: So, so you've touched, you mentioned the word their presence, which is kinda the first thing I know when we were, you know, preparing for this conversation, we said presence is such a critical skill in business, in leadership and, and being present.
So, but I think it's one of these terms, and I know because I've done a lot of podcasts with about this term from with other people in the company as well as outside. That is poorly understood and poorly defined. So here's your crack, you know, how do you define presence and why does it matter for leaders?
Noah Drew: I mean, part of the reason before I, I take my crack at it. Part of the reason I think that it's a bit hard to pin down as a concept. Is because it has the two sides of the coin. We talk about people having presence. Okay. Meaning there's a quality to how we see them that just draws our eye or a quality to how we hear them, that makes it feel like, hmm, this is a person worth listening to.
Mm-hmm. But the, the word presence of course also means the quality of being present. So the state of paying attention, of really being in the here and now in the moment, and. I don't think those are always conceptually linked for folks, you know? Yes. Okay. I know what it is to be distracted. I guess I can understand that being less distracted and more focused, you could call that being more present.
But what does that have to do with Right. Being up in front of people. So anyway, that's the preamble to, to my crack. Okay. Being present is being in a state of awareness and availability that. So moment to moment and so fluid and flexible that people can't help watching you and listening to you because you being in the here and now draws
Bart Egnal: them into the here and now.
And why do you think that matters in the work that we do at the Humphrey Group with leaders?
Noah Drew: Um, I think
Bart Egnal: in part because.
Noah Drew: The world is so full of distractions.
Bart Egnal: Hmm.
Noah Drew: I think in part because it's so easy to get the gist of what somebody is saying and jump ahead in your mind Hmm. And, um, you know, assume where things are gonna go next.
I think in part, because, you know, we talk a lot at the Humphrey Group about. Leadership being the act of inspiration and, and inspiring others. What does that mean on some level? Inspiring. The, the root of the word is about breathing. Inspire is to breathe in Right.
Bart Egnal: Inspiro. Right. It's to, it means to breathe life into
Noah Drew: That's right.
And with, with, uh, an etymological route in, um, to start a fire. Hmm. You blow on the kindling to make the flames grow. And that's. What great leaders do, they kind of ignite excitement and passion and enthusiasm and clarity in others. Right? And so that quality of having presence, you know, the superficial effect of it is, wow, that person is impressive in some way.
Right? But the deeper thing is they're kind of calling us towards something. They're, they're moving us to, to pay attention to what they're paying attention to. Right. With more of ourselves.
Bart Egnal: You feel that all those distractions slip away and you really are connected because the power of the thinking and the ability to deliver it Yeah.
Really intersect. That's right. And I think you're right. I mean, I think about the theater, right? You go into a theater, in many respects, the theater works hard to eliminate many of the distractions and focus you on. The actors. Right? Sure. You know, you think about even theaters now, they're quite ruthless around saying, turn your phone off.
Right. They're sure, you know, they dim the lights so there's, you know, the sensory reduction Yep. Channels you to the actors. But in the business world, you know, you've probably got windows open, you've got your phone there, you might have, so that skill is even more critical.
Noah Drew: Yep. You're absolutely right. And you know, even in, even in the professional theater or in the corporate environments where we can control those settings like a, you know, a real stage from the stage moment or something.
Mm-hmm. It's still impossible to eliminate all the distractions. The only thing I know of that can eliminate all of the distractions is a VR headset and a pair of headphones. Right. Where you're completely, you have no choice. This is, this is what's happening.
Bart Egnal: So. And being tied to your chair, like physically tied to your chair?
Maybe.
Noah Drew: Maybe. Yeah. I don't know. I think that would be pretty distracting to know that I tied to my chair. But, but you know, I think the point I'm trying to make is that, that the, the performers and the stage craft, so that's the design elements too in theater when they work well. It's actually that you want to pay attention or something on an on an animal level makes you pay attention in a way that this will sound bad, but I don't mean in a bad way.
In a way that's similar to when. There's a disaster, like, right, I smell smoke. Is that fire. Right? And you can't look away. Well, that, that makes us more present. We just, we're gonna pay attention to that. We're wired to, you know, or our spouse comes in with a look on their face that looks like bad news or something's up.
Right. You know, well, all our attention goes there. We just, we need to, we want to. So good theater craft is about. Accomplishing that. Hmm. Bad theater craft relies on the dark room. Right. And you know, and, and just like the actors sang something and maybe some good jokes or some nice songs or some good dramatic situations or whatever it is.
But bad theater, I. Isn't that rewarding? It's, it's sort of like, only when it levels up and becomes really a mesmerizing event that I think
Bart Egnal: becomes almost superficial.
Noah Drew: Yeah,
Bart Egnal: that's right. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Noah Drew: And then it's, well,
Bart Egnal: kind of the equivalent of the executive with the slick videos and polished slides.
Mm-hmm. And you're like, that, what's, what am I paying attention for? You're checking your phone 20 minutes, five minutes into a 20 minute presentation. Exactly.
Noah Drew: Exactly. Especially if that executive. You know, doesn't bring the goods themselves. So they've clearly had somebody on their team whip up these polished materials that look great, great drone shots.
Mm-hmm. Of their facilities or whatever. It's, you know, which are great. I mean, there's nothing wrong with those, but if the executive doesn't bring it and sort of use that to really show us something, you know, use that to generate energy, that they then focus towards something. Hm. Well then just send me the video in an email link.
I'm
Bart Egnal: fine. Yeah. Or get AI to do it. Yeah, that's right. So, okay. So that, so you've defined presence and I like, I think you're the only person who's, who's defined it in this two-sided way and talked about the, the power of presence and how. You really can cultivate it, whether you're an actor or a leader. So, so let's talk about how you train actors to develop presence.
And I, and you introduced to me this concept of the Presence Triangle. Mm-hmm. So can you tell me about what the Presence Triangle is?
Noah Drew: Sure. So this is, this is a concept that I, I will claim to have coined, um, done, even though it's a synthesis of lots of other people's thinking. Um, but really it's that I. I noticed that some actors, and I teach student actors, so some student actors were really good at putting themselves out there, meaning connecting with an audience.
Okay. And, um. You know, exhibiting expressive behavior, expressive use of their voice and body, bringing the words to life, but weren't necessarily, they didn't seem to be in touch with a deeper experience within themselves. Hmm. It was all show, other actors seemed to be having a really meaningful experience within themselves.
It just didn't translate outward very well. It was, you know, maybe if I got a camera in their face, in a closeup, it would become rich and alive. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Just, you know, add a live experience. What they, they seem to be busy with something inside and really connected to it, but I don't get it. And then still other actors could intellectually engage with material.
So the script of a play, say in a really smart and meaningful way. Yet that wouldn't necessarily show up in their performance. So this idea that, um, Bart, you're calling the Presence Triangle, uh, really came out of me noticing these three kind of aspects or vales of what people seem to be present with.
The first person is really present with the audience. Mm-hmm. The second person is really present with themselves. Mm-hmm. The third person is really present with their text. Hmm. With their material, but. Incredible actors are present with all three of those at once in a totally fluid way. You can see they're with the audience, whether they're speaking directly to the audience, or there's a fourth wall, imaginary fourth wall, and they're just speaking to their character.
But you can see in how they hold their body, how they use their voice. They feel the audience with them. At least indirectly, and they're certainly present with their scene partner. Mm-hmm. And you know, they're responding instant by instant to what the scene partner is saying and doing. But you can also see the words landing within them in a deeper way.
You can see them being alive inside their own bodies. Hmm. Not just to do the staging, the blocking that they had planned, the gestures that they think are right for this character, but actually discovering. Fresh in the moment. What does it feel like to be me? Hmm. While I say these words to, it's almost this person in this space.
It's like outta the
Bart Egnal: body in body experience at once.
Noah Drew: Y Yeah, like out. If you're talking about the attention of the person, then yeah, the attention. Being able to fluidly who go to that other person. Check in inside themself. Woo. Grab a piece of the text, put it in their mouth. Say it mean it. See how that lands with the other person.
Take in that other person's reaction and feel that inside themselves. So it's, it's like continuous electric dance of attention
Bart Egnal: inside myself, outside myself, to the material. And so these three, the inner experience, the audience experience, the content all come. If you're kind of one with each of these, then.
You'll maximize presence. Is that the idea? Both your own presence and the presence with the audience?
Noah Drew: Yeah, that's exactly right. So,
Bart Egnal: and
Noah Drew: you're not necessarily present with all of them at once, but you're available to,
Bart Egnal: all those aspects draw. So you're not all happening, you're, you're, maybe you're just able to flex into them as you need.
So you might be focused on your content, like I'm gonna get through it. And then you see that the audience is, is dropping away. Their attention is wavering. They're not as interested. And so you can say, you know what? I'm gonna reconnect with them by moving the content to something that's gonna resonate more.
Is that the idea? Uh, it,
Noah Drew: I'd say that's part of it. Absolutely. Part of it is more moment to moment than that. Even though. Mm-hmm. Where, you know, I, I'll give you an example. Um, something we see in leaders quite often is. They will get clear on what they're saying. Mm-hmm. They'll start strong. They'll start delivering an idea or a message, and then you can kind of see them get three quarters of the way through whatever it is they plan to say.
I don't mean the whole talk, I mean a single idea or a single sentence, and you can see their attention mentally jump to the beginning of the next thought.
Bart Egnal: Yes,
Noah Drew: yes. And what that often sounds like is. You know, here I am, I'm talking to you and here's my great idea. And then towards the end, the voice gets a little quieter, fast.
And here's my next study. Well, they're not inside the end of that thought. So what do I, what do I think of that? I, I, when I see that now with this framework, I think, oh, they went in internal. Their attention went to inside themselves and organizing their own mind, but they didn't stay present with.
Material meaning what they have to say and the audience through to the end of the idea, which is less strong. It help it. You know, the audience will get distracted when they get distracted.
Bart Egnal: Hmm.
Noah Drew: On some level. Much stronger to be right inside those words and see how the audience is receiving them right through the end of the thought.
And then if you need a little moment inside to gather your next thought in the pause after you read the audience's reaction to what you just said, totally appropriate time to do it.
Bart Egnal: So you really are having to, it's be connected to the, the what You're delivering the idea behind it fully, like in the moment?
Yep. Be connected to the audience and how it's being received or not. Yeah. And then be connected to how you're feeling about this and like, are you con and to your own beliefs? Is that, would that be the third one?
Noah Drew: Yeah. Your whole, the whole of your inner life, your beliefs, your associations, your opinions, your emotions.
Even your physical sensations. Right. You know, somebody who is tuning out something as simple as Burr, it's a little cold in here. Hmm. Or um hmm. My stomach rumbled 'cause lunch soon. Hmm. Even if they're, if they're trying to tune that out, they become less present. Right. I'm not saying you let yourself go down the rabbit hole of thinking about your lunch menu while you're in the middle of giving a talk.
Not at all, but actually trying to tune them out. Gives those kinds of thoughts more importance. And we tend to, there's a, this phrase, um, from theater training, what you resist persists.
Bart Egnal: Hmm.
Noah Drew: So if you're trying to like, don't let them see that I'm cold. Don't let them, don't think about lunch. You're giving a lot of mental energy to the temperature and to lunch you it to tame it.
Yeah, exactly. So if you can kind of like, oh, I'm present with that for a moment. That's interesting.
Bart Egnal: Hmm.
Noah Drew: Okay. And what's important here? Ah.
Bart Egnal: This topic, I'm back on track. So, so let me ask you now, we've been talking about presence, and I love this concept of the triangle and the three, the three points we've been talking about presence in theater through the context of a performance on stage.
Mm-hmm. And we've, we've kind of been talking generally for leaders around the same concept, right? Mm-hmm. Whether it's an annual general meeting and investor day. And so we've, so people listening may be thinking, well, you guys are just discussing like these big performances. Sure. And I don't do many of those.
Right. You know, I, my day consists of, you know, teams meetings and quick conversations and maybe sitting around a boardroom with my colleagues. Mm-hmm. Um, and by the way, I don't, like, I'm not the performer in those. I might speak up or I might not. And doing all of this conscious intention around presence just sounds impractical.
What? What would you say to that?
Noah Drew: Well, I, I would say a couple of things. Uh, I mean, it's a great point. So many people's workday does not involve a stage, but one thing I would say is lots of people's workday or work year occasionally involves a stage. Mm. And I don't necessarily mean a literal stage. I mean that moment that, you know, you are called upon to support your manager to go speak to the board of your organization.
Mm-hmm. Well, that if you're. The habit of not being very present when you speak, that's probably gonna get exacerbated when the pressure of that high stakes moment is on. So building in some kind of practice of presence or getting some help in recognizing where your blind spots might be, gets you ready for the big moment when it comes.
Hmm.
Bart Egnal: And can we also add to that, to your point around most people aren't on literal stage. Not all stages are big or literal. Oh, sure, sure. You know, in that, in those meetings, and I love the way you're putting it. Start, start applying it when the stakes are lower. Right. Start applying these, this intention around presence when you're not in front of the board, so that when the pressure comes as you point out and it really is a command performance, you'll have built the muscle.
That's right. A bit.
Noah Drew: That's right. That's exactly right. And, and I, I love how you put that. Not all stages are big or literal. I mean, what is a stage? It's just some area of the room that's set up so that everybody can see you. Well, that's it. Okay. That's the entirety. What a stage is simple. Huh? It's right.
So, but why does that matter? Why do we do that at all? To create these experiences of all eyes on you? All eyes on us. This heightened directionality of attention, right? Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. And it comes, I, I imagine with, you know, both the pressure and the opportunity, and I think that's right. You know, for people listening who may not have that heightened attention, even if you're in a teams meeting with 20 people, you can kind of turn it into a micro stage if you, if you believe, as you said, that you, you're connected to your material.
Yeah. You wanna connect to that audience and you wanna share some convictions.
Noah Drew: Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. And in a way, how you're putting it is the carrot. Stick and I'd say, here's the stick. Here comes the stick, stick stick. The stick is on a subconscious level. So many people. Feeling the pressure of the stage whenever attention is on them.
Okay. Even if it just feels like, oh, well it's, you know, it's, it's just the all hands meeting for my team, right? Or something like that. It's not that big a deal and I'm just presenting these couple of slides. But on a subconscious level, nobody else is talking. You know? Uh, I've been asked, I've been tasked with presenting this content, so lots of people deal unhelpfully with pressure.
I, I mean, I don't mean all kinds of pressure. I'm not an expert in all kinds of pressure, but I mean, the particular pressure that comes from the attention of others,
Bart Egnal: right? So let, so let's talk about how you help actors deal with it the right way and how people listening can adopt some of those techniques through the lens of the the triangle to better be ready when.
The eyes are on or there literally is a stage. Sure. What, what's the, what's the first piece of advice you would give people listening who are like, alright, I take your point. I don't go to the board, but I'm on the stage. I wanna feel more confident and I want to connect. What's the first thing I should do?
Noah Drew: Well, I, I wish I had such a, a, like a straightforward one size fits all answer to that. But the truth is it depends which of those three areas I was
Bart Egnal: talking about is weak. Okay. Okay. How do you, but well, okay, so then maybe it's how you have to assess, how do you figure out which one is weak? Uh, let's say I was trying to help you Bart.
Um, yes. Do it. Figure that out. Coach me. Okay. Which is which? Which of my threes weak? Weakest.
Noah Drew: Well, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep it hypothetical for now, unless you want me to talk about my Oh, yeah, sure. Percept. I'm ready for some real feel. Okay.
Bart Egnal: Like, that's, it's free coaching. Oh, okay.
Noah Drew: There you go. Well, my free coaching is, uh, that I think that you're, you're very strong in connecting to the material and you're very strong in connection to the audience.
You and I have been in rooms together many times. I would say the piece that is less developed though not getting you in trouble, is that internal attention.
Bart Egnal: Hmm.
Noah Drew: So like the, tell me more. Well, so there are times when we've been in a meeting together or mm-hmm. Course together or some situation where you've actually done this really well, where you've heard something happen in the room and I've seen you.
You know, your eyes maybe defocus or focus a thousand yards away for a moment. You turn your eyes away from the audience for a second, and I can see you're digesting what you just heard or learned. Or sometimes that'll look for you, like going down to make a note on a page. I've seen you do that, and then when you come up and what you say next, or maybe you put that in your pocket and you address it later, I've seen you do both those things.
It tends to be so sharp and clear and related to what's going on. Not only, I think because intellectually you've kind of pieced it into the tapestry of whatever's. The topic is, but I think also because you're taking that moment to go, huh, what do I think of that? I wasn't expecting to hear that. That was some interesting new information or perspective that wasn't, yeah.
That I just didn't predict. And so going inward for that digestion. Right. Makes
Bart Egnal: what comes
Noah Drew: out
Bart Egnal: related to it much stronger. So that's what I'm doing effectively. That's right. But that's, that's my biggest opportunity in the presence triangle to do that more consistently. That's what I'm, here's Right, exactly.
Because
Noah Drew: there, there are other times where I've seen you, as many of us do, you know, you've prepared what you want to say. Yeah. You're very present with the audience. I don't see a big problem with that with you. Um, you know, and you know what, you were able to follow your own thinking, your own structure very well.
Uh, you're a writer, so some of the phrasing is really nicely crafted, but there have been times when I've seen you not fully digest something that came up in the room. Yeah. 'cause I'm, it gets back on. I'm gonna
Bart Egnal: deliver this and I'm on my, my path, so That's right. Great, great piece of feedback. So first thing is you get Noah to come on to have to come on your podcast and give you some, some great frank analysis of the three.
So people who don't have that luxury, how do you think, should they ask a colleague? Should they. Go through a self-reflection. How did they identify which of the three areas they are are weakest in The, probably the fast and dirty
Noah Drew: version that somebody can do themself is just a little bit of reflection.
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Noah Drew: And it can start with some terms that we all know very well. If you consider yourself more introverted, probably part of that is you have a good connection to yourself and your internal experience. Mm-hmm. That's part of what I think introversion is. Mm-hmm. Is I'm in, I'm in tune with what's inside and so.
More stuff on the outside can get a little bit overwhelming or I can mm-hmm. It can have a hard time being present with it. If you think of yourself more as an extrovert, then it might be the reverse, you know, you're more audience connected. Yeah. More audience connected. Right. If you think of material, and so for a leader that's a script or a deck or mm-hmm.
Some speaking notes or whatever it is, even a, even a topic if, if you are one of those people. Who doesn't wanna give that too much attention? Hmm. I'm gonna say something like, but it's gonna go fine, but don't script me. Don't script me. Right? We've heard that, you know, meaning don't even structure me, right?
Mm-hmm. You know, we all know that lots of speakers do better when they don't have every word scripted in lots of contexts, but, but very few do well with non scripted. None scripted. Yeah, exactly. Or no structure at all. But there's some people that are so uncomfortable with looking at like, can't I just go and talk about the topic and wing it?
Or can't somebody else prepare that for me. Right. Well that probably means that's a sign you are not able to be very present with your material.
Bart Egnal: That's a great point. I can think of a very senior executive who I coach absolutely beloved by their team. Mm-hmm. Uh, and can talk for hours and does Yeah. But.
Resists any sort of structure. And you know, the challenge is the team loves this person to death. Yeah. Could run through a wall for them and yet often leaves saying, what was the point of that, aside from feeling better, right. Because of that third piece is not foundational. So yeah. I like the way you're point is you can do this self-assessment.
You just go through these and you see where you, where you shy away from and where you. Embrace. That's right. Okay. So once you have that, yeah. Once you've identified which, which of the three is perhaps the biggest development opportunity, how do you go and give attention to that one and build that capability?
So I think, so
Noah Drew: the, uh, you know, then you've got a different prescription depending on which of those it is. Right. Each of the
Bart Egnal: three is gonna require a difference. So maybe, maybe give me your, like lightning round prescription for each of the three. Sure. So we'll start with, with my area. Mm-hmm. So with the connection.
To the material. The your own inner convictions. Your own, yeah. That inner experience.
Noah Drew: Yeah. So, so my prescription for you would be to make it a, a daily practice, at least for a while while you're doing other things, say, walking the dog or, or, um, you know, chatting with a neighbor or at work. To take these little mini timeouts.
Hmm. Nobody would necessarily even know that you're doing it, but when something comes up, you see, you know, oh, it's a nice sunrise and I'm out early with the dog, or, or somebody raises a point to let it land with you. If you have even a, a hunch that there's something in there that, that's new for you, that's, or that's a different spark of life, a different perspective for you just to take a mini moment to go, how do I feel about that?
Literally feel your body.
Bart Egnal: So that's the kind of prescription. Okay. See the reaction I have. So I'm, I'm connecting more with my inner experience of how I'm interacting, how my presence is interacting with the world.
Noah Drew: Yeah. Through the body
Bart Egnal: though. Through the body. That piece is
Noah Drew: really important because when we do those things, I was talking before about senior, the focus in your eyes change.
Hmm. That's a sign that something is shift shifting on a nervous system level actually. Hmm. So. If you know, I'll take myself in this moment. You said, okay, you know, with inner experience, and I said, yeah, yeah. Through the body, because when I heard I had said through the body and I didn't hear that reflected back in this particular moment, I felt a kind of quickening sensation.
I felt a little shift in my breathing
Bart Egnal: like you thought, did I miss it? Yeah, exactly. There's like a little.
Noah Drew: You know, if I really pulled the thread of it, I would call it like the lowest grade worry in the world or something like that. Right. But how that shows up for me is a little increase in internal tempo.
Hmm. And I can feel, you know, probably if I was wearing like a heart monitor, I would see it go up by a few beats a minute, not a lot. So you're looking
Bart Egnal: for that physiological reaction. And And getting more connected to that and how Yeah. Yeah.
Noah Drew: Change of temperature, shift of weight, shift of breathing, shift of sense of rhythm.
And you don't have to do more than that at first, except to practice noticing that that's happening. Right. Often to your point
Bart Egnal: around the cold, if you're trying to trick people that you're not cold, that's it. They'll just notice that you're trying to do that.
Noah Drew: Yeah. Or they'll be distracted a little and won't know why.
Right. You'll seem just less fully right
Bart Egnal: there. Right. Okay, so that, so that's great feedback for connecting to your inner experience. Yep. Let's talk about if you've identified that connection to your audience is your area of development.
Noah Drew: Yeah, so this is sort of like classic exposure therapy. I think. Then it's about putting yourself deliberately in situations that push you outta your comfort zone, not in a, you know.
Horrific way. You don't want to be right creating a negative association, but maybe it's about scheduling into your week. More instances where you're gonna need to hold the floor and, and whether that's social, whether that's at work, but that's something else. Maybe it's putting your hand up, uh, to be the one.
Okay. I'll open up our team's presentation and do the first three slides
Bart Egnal: or I'll join Toastmasters masters, join, so I have some low stakes
Noah Drew: practice join. Yeah. Exactly, or I'll join something else like a, you know, book club or something where, boy, the stakes are sure low there, but we all kind of bounce around and you share your, I, you know, your thoughts and your perspective on the reading and whatever it is, you know, or you say yes.
Where you would usually say no to a night out with friends to watch the game at a bar or something like that. Mm-hmm. Where you just making yourself go into the hot seat a little bit more and a little bit more often. But then there's a, there's a little caveat there. Okay. Which is, you have to notice if you're shutting down more because of doing that, then, even if you mean it's causing you so much stress
Bart Egnal: Yeah.
That you're re you know, retracting.
Noah Drew: That's right. Then even if it seemed innocuous, it was a little too much. Hmm. So you
Bart Egnal: calibrate your level of exposure. Yeah. Until you reach a level of comfort.
Noah Drew: That's right. Because so many people, because of whatever happens in their personal history, you know, had. Often early experiences, childhood experiences that on some level taught them that it's not always safe to be right out there and be available to be affected by people.
To
Bart Egnal: be
Noah Drew: connected. Well, we know that
Bart Egnal: that famous Seinfeld joke, because public speaking's consistently ranked a higher fear than death, that that means you'd rather be in the coffin than giving the eulogy. Yeah, that's right.
Noah Drew: That's right. So, but you know the interesting question, it's like, why? It varies from person to person.
Mm-hmm. But usually it's at some time you learned, I, I put myself way out there and I got burned. Right. So just don't do it. Yeah. Why would you wanna get burned a second time, a third time, a sixth time? The problem is that's a self perpetuating thing. Right. You know? 'cause then you retract a little more, you retract a little more.
Even a lower dose of, uh, the stimulation of, of being seen by others feels more intense. And,
Bart Egnal: and so maybe you can draw if that, if you're in that space, you can draw on the third, um, which is, you know, deep belief in your material. That gives you the courage to. Come forward
Noah Drew: and That's right. And, and the presence piece of that.
So I I absolutely am with you that belief is part of it. There's a sort of care in the stewardship of the material in a sense. Tell me about that. Well, like, um, you know, I, I work with lots of people. They are executives I coach who never. Create their own slides. Mm-hmm. And in sometime, in some cases, don't even have a hand in their own speaking notes other than getting them five minutes before and taking out the red pen.
And I'm not gonna say that it's a shock
Bart Egnal: that they don't just deliver them with inspirational vigor. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Exactly. If
Noah Drew: you're listening, that was a joke, speaking on behalf of whoever prepared this, I'll say so. So I do think that. The time spent for even somebody busy like an executive of a major company or or somebody high up in government, the time spent being a bit more curatorial and a bit more personal in your relationship to your material in advance, pays off in spades.
One of the ways it can pay off is with your presence, partly because you're not, you know, sort of distracted about, ah, this feels wrong coming outta my mouth. Right. But partly also because a really good speaker isn't just saying what they plan to say, how they plan to say it, they're actually engaging with the content in real time.
Bart Egnal: Mm-hmm.
Noah Drew: As the words come out of their mouth mm-hmm. Or as the words pop into their mind, the moment before they come out of their mouth. Mm-hmm. And they're available to pivot if a pivot is needed. Mm-hmm. Because they realize it, they, they feel like the room is turning against them. Okay. That's outward audience attention.
But then there may be, as you said earlier, Bart able to kind of switch up their content. To, you know, ask a good question or to lean into something they thought was gonna be a minor detail. They realized it's gonna be important. That's being present with their material. I mean, this
Bart Egnal: is so important on the content.
You know, I started my career in 2001 as a speech writer. Mm-hmm. And you know, what would always happen is the C and it was all CEOs. It was. You know, keynote at the podium, many of them would have their own speech fairs. But what you describe is exactly what would happen. The speech fair would, they'd say, I need a speech for such and such an event.
I'm going to the Empire Club, I'm gonna the Canadian club going the board trade. What's the topic? This is it. Okay. The speech fair would write a speech. Yeah. And, and it would, and then they'd hand it to them, you know, a week, days before, and it was just totally uninspired. Right. And so when I'd work with these executives.
It would always start with an interview that could go on for hours. I actually used to transcribe these interviews in these little micro cassettes. I could have used ai then it would take me like eight hours to then retype it into a transcript that we'd use to make the speech right. But it forced the executives to talk about what they really want to say.
Mm-hmm. And so that was the CI mean, as much as. Myself and our firm were, were great writers. It was the forcing mechanism of having them engage with the material
Noah Drew: Yeah. And be
Bart Egnal: present with it.
Noah Drew: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: That, I think, led to such a powerful outcome.
Noah Drew: Yeah. Right. And then when they get the speech from you, they're not encountering it for the first time.
They're actually just seeing, oh yeah. These are the bits and pieces of what I said cleaned up, put into a meaningful structure and, uh, and made concise and, and purposeful. Right. And so then they're able to kind of enjoy being inside that much more. Mm-hmm. And be much more effective saying it.
Bart Egnal: So, Noah, I love your, your triangle.
You know, the material, your inner experience, the audience's experience, and your. Guidelines around how to self-assess or, or get someone to assess you and then tackle these. I'm assuming, you know, as we kind of come to a close here, that whether you're a business executive, you know, someone early in their career or, or an actor like this is an, a lifelong journey.
Like, you never reach a moment of perfection. Right. You know, the, the
Noah Drew: practice of presence is a term that you hear people use in the mindfulness and meditation world. Which some of this material that I've been talking about draws on. That's sort of one of the roots. I'm, I'm not a big meditator myself. I have tried it many times over the years, and I actually get my strongest experiences of meditation through going for runs.
Bart Egnal: Hmm.
Noah Drew: There's something about moving my body and being outdoors that. Does all the things that all my meditator friends have been saying for years. Yeah. I'm saying that cycling too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Yeah. But, but you know, I, I do think that there's absolutely practice. There are though easy wins that people can get in the short term.
Just by doing the kind of assessment we've been talking about. Okay. So that would be the number one thing to start with. Yeah. Just figure out like where's the weak spot, if there is one, and you mentioned earlier, get advice from others if that kind of self-assessment doesn't work. For sure. The people who work with you will know.
Right. You could just ask them. Do I seem like I'm present with other people while I'm speaking to them a lot? Mm-hmm. Or a little or not at all. Do I seem like. I'm letting myself actually think and have feelings while I'm talking, or do I seem like I'm only focused on, you know, being outward? Do I seem like I'm really clear and really present with what I'm saying as I say it?
Or do it seem a little bit automatic pilot?
Bart Egnal: You know? And yeah, those are, those are great probing questions and, and I think, you know, I'd encourage everyone listening to start down that process. Yeah. Great. Me too. Noah, this has been great. The last thing I'll ask you is. You're very well read. You go deep in this stuff.
Any things that we can link to and share with people that can give them a richness around this topic?
Noah Drew: Yeah, what I would recommend is. It's a little bit of a lateral, um mm-hmm. Recommendation. So, as you know, Bart, I'm, I'm a certified teacher in something called Fitz Morris. Voice work. Yes. We didn't even get to tap into this.
That's totally okay. But the, there are some really interesting, um, writings available for free at the Fitzmaurice Institute website. Hmm. Um. We can link
Bart Egnal: to these in the, in the episode notes for people listening.
Noah Drew: Yeah. And I would particularly recommend folks check out writing by, um, a good friend and colleague of mine, uh, Saul, who's based in Los Angeles, who was, I mean.
Really interesting guy. But among other things, he was a scholar of Buddhism doing a PhD in Buddhism, but he's also done all kinds of conflict resolution work, and he's coached actors at the highest level and as performers, he's a voice teacher. And then lately his work has mostly about coaching executives.
And so. There's a writing that he has that's specifically about presence that has been very influential for me. Short pieces, articles mostly.
Bart Egnal: Good. Okay. We'll split a link. And Noah, I wanna thank you for coming on the podcast and I always learn a lot from you. I, I got, I didn't expect to get a free micro coaching session, but clearly all the work we've done together has allowed you to build up some good, uh, insights.
And so I appreciate you sharing them.
Noah Drew: Oh, such a pleasure. Great
Bart Egnal: to talk Bart, as always.
I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire Podcast and the conversation that I had, uh, with our guests, and hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational if you're enjoying the pod. I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.
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Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire.