Peter Zukow: When we advise clients, we frequently tell them that, you know, always and never are not good places to stand on, on any issue, but particularly around talent management. So you shouldn't have to outsource everything. If you're outsourcing everything to us or any organization, then there's something fundamentally broken inside. But at the same time, you shouldn't. If you do everything inside, that means you're probably missing some pieces that you need support with in order to truly, you know, reach that pinnacle of. Of true market mastery of talent management.
Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal president and CEO of the Humphrey Group. And if you've ever asked yourself how can you develop an authentic leadership presence or how can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word, well, then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life. So my guest on today's episode of the Inspire podcast is Peter Zukow Peter is the managing partner at IQ Partners, which is a executive search firm based in Toronto, but with a national Canadian presence. Peter, we've known each other for a long time. It feels almost like a crime that I haven't had you on the show. A crime that today we are correcting. So welcome to the Inspire podcast.
Peter Zukow: I was starting to get a complex that I hadn't been invited, Bart.
Bart Egnal: I know. I started receiving, like, strange emails from anonymous sources. Have you thought about the Zukow guy for the show? So. Exactly. It worked. Your campaign, whoever you are. Exactly. This. It works. So welcome to the show.
Peter Zukow: Well, thanks for having me, Bart. Thanks for having me. It's great.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, absolutely. And, you spent your career not just in search, but in leadership development. And so I know, you know, you sit at this really cool spot of talent, right? And the world of talent's changing, and you sit at the place where you see those changes. And so what I wanted to have you on to talk about, for those listening. How is talent evolving, and what does it mean for leaders? You know, what we. What do leaders really need to think about when it comes to developing talent? So maybe I'll let you kind of start with your headline.
So what's the, for people listening who are in leadership, what do they need to think about today when it comes to managing talent?
Peter Zukow: Well, I think the fundamentals haven't actually ever changed. I think what has changed is that we're Operating in a much more complex world and environment than ever before. Be it technology, be it AI, be it trends in the marketplace, the economy, the geopolitical environment. All of these things impact people as individuals and individuals are the people that work for organizations and have to be cared for in that capacity.
Bart Egnal: And do you think that. So someone listening today? I mean, let me give you three kind of archetypes. We have a CEO of a mid sized company, we have a VP in the bank. I feel like I always go the VP in the bank. But there are a lot of VPs in banks.
Peter Zukow: There are a lot.
Bart Egnal: Hopefully they're all listening. And then we have an up and coming young professional who aspires to leadership. What is the common thread when you talk about the same fundamentals for talent exists? What do they all need to think about when it comes to talent?
Peter Zukow: I think they need to think about the needs of their teams. I think in each of those cases they have different stakeholders, they have direct line reports. Then they have broader teams that filter up into them. Or in some cases it may be people that they don't directly lead or manage. It may be external stakeholders that they partner with in this day and age. So I think in each of those cases it's what are the fundamental needs of those stakeholders? I think that's a really good place to start from.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, so whatever. And I think that's a great cold open here. Whatever you, whatever role you're in, whatever scenery, you're going to have to think about talent and the needs of the stakeholders you serve. So, okay, we're going to come back to that, but let's rewind the clock back. As you know, here you are.
Peter Zukow: Jump into the time machine.
Bart Egnal: That's right. So, so tell me, you're, you're now, you know, heading up a national search firm, you're a talent advisor, but you didn't start there. Where'd your career start and how it leads you to where you are today?
Peter Zukow: Yeah, completely, by accident. So I, I grew up in Montreal. I came to Ontario to go to university and then post, university migrated to Vancouver just because it seemed like it was the right thing to do. and after a early, short stint in sales as a sort of an entry level role to get my career started, I actually went to a recruiting firm to actually pursue a new career. And lo and behold that career ended up being in the, in the office that I was interviewing in.
Bart Egnal: You mean they said we've got an opportunity for you and it turned out it was with them was like a backdoor strategy.
Peter Zukow: I actually think it was. They realized they couldn't place me so they had to figure out something to do with me. I think that might have been it.
Bart Egnal: This guy keeps showing up. We'd better hire him or, or he'll get upset.
Peter Zukow: Yeah. So you know, I think really truthfully if you talk to most people that end up in recruitment or search, it's usually not a career of choice. It's not something that people have ambitions for, particularly 20, 30 years ago when it was really lesser known field and so most people find their way into it truthfully by accident. I was lucky enough to find it early in my career. So I started in Vancouver with boutique firm in Vancouver based and we ultimately grew that firm. So right time, right place, migrated to Calgary to help open up our Alberta and Prairies offices and then ultimately came to Toronto to open up our offices here. and so that just sort of took on a whole life of its own. So I've been able to, been very fortunate to have not only you know, worked with you know, companies and individuals on a national basis, but I've actually lived and been in many of the major centers across Canada.
Bart Egnal: And for people listening like, who don't know about the search business, like just kind of give us the one minute overview. Like what is search?
Peter Zukow: Yeah, I mean search, I mean there's a lot of different names that get or acronyms. Whether it's executive search, recruitment, recruitment agencies, headhunters, placement agencies and fundamentally they're all in the same umbrella of organizations and that is organizations and companies that are seeking talent will engage firms like ours to go out and find that talent on behalf. And we would go into market and identify you know, qualified candidates, interview, screen them, help build short lists and work them through the process with the client.
Bart Egnal: And I know when I was coming up we saw the rise of like Internet job boards, like I remember Monster and now There's Indeed and LinkedIn and there was this thought that like the rise of these services would end the search business but it hasn't. So, so what does search offer? Like why would a company higher IQ for example and not just post a job on LinkedIn?
Peter Zukow: Yeah, I think part of it is that we, we have a, we have an understanding of the marketplace and access to talent that a job board won't. And the biggest, first fundamental difference is that we, we, we tap into access the passive job seeker, not the active job seeker. So not to say that there aren't Active job seekers that are well positioned and could be good for an organization. But the passive job seeker is someone who is quite content in their role and doing well where they're at within their organization, but might be open to exploring an opportunity if the right thing came along. So those are the people that we distract them. We do, we do. And the other thing is that we are able to uniquely be an ambassador for the organization and champion that organization's culture, the opportunity, their purpose, their drive, their future strategy. So we're able to tell their story in a way that a job board never could. And so that individual that might not be actively looking might get intrigued enough to be willing to at least entertain or enter the process.
Bart Egnal: Okay, so that's helpful. So we've seen, you know that's kind of an evolution, right? We still see that service, but we can also post another big evolution which I think is going to lead us into this broader conversation of talent is that over the last two decades really a lot of the kind of big names in search I'm thinking of firms like Korn Ferry have also built talent practices, leadership assessment, coaching practices. Talk a bit about this trend and why, why it's happened.
Peter Zukow: I think it's an evolution. If you look at the broader function within hr, let's say you've got you've, you had HR departments that were, were looking at key areas of training development, succession planning and other things around recruitment and onboarding, assessment tools. All of those things were, were kind of bucketed or segregated into unique areas when really all of those things are tied into the full talent life cycle. And so as we're starting to more look more holistically at the talent archetype and looking at it more strategically, it only makes sense that when you are going into market that we can actually access and do more for an organization versus just simply find the individual that we can actually help assess the individual that we can help onboard the individual and ultimately provide them with support service for their internal talents. So we often get asked to include or bring into internal candidates into a, into a process where they're, where they're also reviewing external candidates.
Bart Egnal: Right. And I know you, you've partnered and joined with other firms like Impact, coaches, so you can offer those services as well. So it really is kind of the broader, as you said, not just doing a search but talent and then you hire someone and then you would do an assessment and they need to develop their team. And so it's kind of this, this life cycle. Of talent.
Peter Zukow: Yes. Yes.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. Okay, so, so let's look at this today. What is it? So let's talk about talent. Like what is. Define this concept of talent management for me and then explain the role that leaders have in the process.
Peter Zukow: I, think talent management is really simply just around evaluating the landscape of, of and the pool of talent you have. And that pool could be internal, it could be external, and figuring out how are you going to develop the strongest talent pool and the greatest opportunity, for success for your business. We talked about at the beginning that, you know, the ability for organizations to succeed lies within their people. And that ability for an organization to be truly successful, their people is around not only building dynamic cultures and attracting the best talent, but also building and cultivating that on an ongoing basis. So creating great succession strategies and being able to attract the best.
Bart Egnal: So Peter, what I'm hearing, and I think the first big point we want to make to people listening is you can't just rely, no matter how great your HR department is, no matter how great a partner like IQ is, you can't just rely on others to build talent. Can you give me an ah, example or a story of a leader who you've worked with, who really kind of epitomizes that commitment to talent management?
Peter Zukow: Yeah, we've got several. And I think one of the things that we do at the onset of partnering with any organization is truly engaging with the top leaders, ideally the CEO, the president of the organization, because they are the ones that it starts at the top and filters down. And their willingness to engage in the process in, in any capacity is hugely helpful in, in attracting the best talent. So we've had situations where we've got a, a leader who's been willing to engage in. And actually the first conversation, if you think about typically a, you know, an executive search at a senior level, it works through many fundamental levels of, of being interviewed and screened by us, then maybe into an HR person, then another stakeholder, and then ultimately it may be a final stage into the CEO or had a, CEO that was willing to have coffee chats with prospective candidates at the very beginning of the process. It wasn't an interview. It wasn't necessarily there to be a screening. It was really just there to have a conversation for him to share his vision of where the organization is today and where he's taking it. And all that did was it opened up the door and it created this huge level of engagement with those candidates because now they were truly bought into what the CEO's vision was for the organization and it made the process for them much easier because now you've got candidates that still have to go through that same process. They still have to go through the HR interviews and go through the various stakeholder interviews and the assessments, but now they're bought in because they, they've already connected with the CEO and are aligned with what, what their vision is for the organization.
Bart Egnal: I love it. And then when they're going through, when he finally meets the short list, it's. That connection has already been made. I imagine that that's pretty rare. So, yeah, that's a great example of, you know, how you have to kind of take the lead. If you're listening and you're a leader, involve yourself, in that process. Another thing that, that we talked about, I'm wondering if you could kind of elaborate on is this idea that talent, total talent management, you can't just. Okay, so you imagine you hire someone who's great, you get that perfect candidate in, but then you've talked about the need to coach and develop them to become better leaders in the talent management process. Now both of us are in the leadership development business as well as the search business. I mean, I'm not in search business, but you know, you're also in the leadership development business and so we're often called upon. But I think when I take this, I'd like you to kind of elaborate on this, that you can't just outsource talent development once you have those great people. Can you, can you elaborate? And again, give me an example of a leader you've worked with who does this. Right.
Peter Zukow: Well, I think it's about walking the walk. I mean, it's one thing to talk about that during, a recruitment process and to invest in, you know, in all of the right tools and processes when you're recruiting. So you could hire the best, best recruitment firm you can, bring in the best assessment tools you can have, an onboarding coach, you can have all those things and do everything right. But then what do you do after that? If you stop and you don't follow through, then you've basically put all this hard work in and, and you're now not following through on, on all this great intel, intelligence and information that you gather during the process. So what we always talk about is that with, you know, whether it's with assessment tools or, or onboarding coaches or even the, the process that you're going through with bringing someone on board, oftentimes all stuff that's going to be baked into their ongoing development plan as well as their, the, you know, their coaching strategy internally for the long term. So those are things that you should be revisiting at six months, at 12 months, at two years. There's things that they're living, breathing documents or, or information items that you can leverage moving forward.
Bart Egnal: So tell me a story of. Because I imagine you keep, when you place a candidate, you keep in touch with them, right? And if they're unhappy, they tell you. If they're happy, they tell you, right, they're, they're happy to send you bottles of wine. Thank you for making my life great. Now if they're unhappy, they said, I don't know what they put in your dead horse.
Peter Zukow: No, they usually, they, usually when they're happy, they forget about us. When they're unhappy, they call us.
Bart Egnal: That's right. No news is good news. But when you, when you think about people who are happy, you're on. Can you think of a story of someone where it went beyond the, that, you know, kind of call it 90 day period? You know, the, the novelty of onboarding was over and where they, the experience they had really was of leadership walking the walk. What, what comes to mind?
Peter Zukow: I, I think one of the things that we've seen consistently, there's a, there's probably countless stories that I could provide, but the biggest ones always come back to following the career trajectories. You see the individuals that have been able to evolve their careers internally. So when there was a, there was a, a path forward for a candidate when they came on board a new hire, that they were actually able to follow through and live that experience. So it's the individual that we placed at a senior director or a VP that is now the president or CEO. Those are the stories that are the best because you've seen them walk through and actually live the, the journey and walk through it with them. So we've seen that countless times where the person that we put in at a, a certain level ultimately succeeded and, and, and, and moved on into much more senior leadership roles within the business.
Bart Egnal: Right. And that's, and that's down to. You're saying leadership walking the walk, right? That, so if you're listening, that's kind of the second big point, right? You, once you hire great talent, you have to commit to their ongoing kind of development and support and advancement. Is that fair say?
Peter Zukow: I think it's fair to say. And I also think it's about being very transparent and authentic about what that opportunity looks like for an individual when, you know, for anybody, when they're joining an organization, they have hopes, dreams, ambitions for their career. And it's really critical to make sure that those are aligned with what, what the opportunities for the individual in that organization look like.
Bart Egnal: What if they're not? What do you say if they're not?
Peter Zukow: But that's okay, because sometimes it can be acknowledged that we can offer you, you know, we can take you on the next step in your journey. We may not be able to. We can't guarantee that we're going to be able to offer the next three or four steps, but we can certainly give you a really good foundation moving forward. And we hope that will ultimately be with us. But it might not be.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, I, like that. And I think that that honesty and openness is really key.
Okay, so we've talked about this evolution of talent, right? We've gone from search to talent. And really this idea that, you know, if you're listening, you as a leader, whatever stage of your career you're at, you have to be involved in it. Let's go now to, the what this means, like, for leaders who have to be talent managers. Because I think a lot of people listening are going to say, look, we did a, panel, right, with some of your colleagues on the incredible pressure and demands on leaders today. Never before has the burden of leadership been greater also, the opportunity. But leaders are just overwhelmed with demands on their time, expectations from their directs and changes in the world. And so they might say, oh, my gosh, you know, Pierre, I just. I can't add more on talent advisory. So one of the. Let's, let's get to like, the three simple things that people listening can do to begin incorporating talent, this kind of talent mindset into their work.
What's the first one?
Peter Zukow: So, I think when any organization is looking to manage talent effectively, communication is critical. It's laying out a plan and sticking to that plan. So who are the key touch points for that individual within the organization? How often are they going to be communicated to and with whom, and what can they expect from that and staying true to those plans? I think that's critical because everybody needs to know what the expectations are of them and on them, them.
Bart Egnal: Okay, so point one, you've got to have clear communication. You've got to be intentional around communicating people's career trajectory, what they have to do to get there, and, you know, regular communication on that path. Okay. Second key. Second E. I won't call easy, but second, straightforward way that people could Begin incorporating talent management into their leadership practice.
Peter Zukow: Well, you, you, you mentioned earlier about what the most effective CEOs or, or senior leaders do. And, and it's, and it's for them committing to their, you know, their talent, by way of personal connection and touch points. So they have to invest the time themselves.
Bart Egnal: So there's no shortcut.
Peter Zukow: There's no shortcut. There's no shortcut. And that doesn't necessarily mean that they have to spend hours every week and have to have one on ones with everybody, but they do have to be intentional and, and that can be both internal and external. Their brand reputation.
Bart Egnal: What do you mean by that?
Peter Zukow: Well, it's, it's interesting because oftentimes we, when we're recruiting externally in the marketplace, we find that leaders have reput both good and bad because the, you know, the world is a very small place and people talk. When you get into industries where people have spent time and have colleagues that have worked at different organizations, there's ultimately sort of maybe a, you know, and I use a reputation, maybe that's not the right word, but there's an understanding and people will actually gravitate towards, oh, I've heard really good things about that leader or I've heard really good things about that organization. So that is an investment that you make that ultimately will help you succeed not only with, with maintaining and keeping your existing talent and cultivating to do greater things, but also in terms of attracting other people. So that commitment to spending time investing in your brand as a leader will pay dividends both internally and externally.
Bart Egnal: So let's just delve into that and we'll come to your third point in a moment.
Okay, so a couple kind of rapid fire questions for you. So you say you have to spend time with your own talent. Now one thing I sometimes hear executives say is look, I have let's say 10 direct reports so my time is limited and of those two of them I view as future potential in terms of seniority and promotion. Should they allocate their time equally to all 10 or should they over allocate to the two that they view as key talent?
Peter Zukow: I, I don't think there's a, a one answer to that question, I think.
Bart Egnal: Oh, you asked multi problem.
Peter Zukow: No, I think it's I, I think you know, there's no doubt that you're going to over invest in those leaders that you feel have massive, huge potential for growth. But you may invest in them in different ways. It may not be with your time, it may be allocating them coaches, it may be by giving them different projects and assignments to work on as opposed to just simply just spending more one on one time with them. And the truth is that sometimes high potential leaders and high potentials of people that they think are the future are really important. But that doesn't mean that the leader that is in another role that may not have the three step move left or the rise to the top isn't a critical leader into that business. They may be the anchor, the, you know, the, the person who's fundamentally holding the, you know, the corporate you know, culture and doing all sorts of things that will be really important for that, that organization. So I think you look at each leader in terms of what their needs are and I also think that leaders themselves have to look at what, where, where do they excel from a communication style. Some will be, want to do town halls, some will be high touch and want to have lots of one on ones and do coffee meetings. Some will be you know, people that want to, to send emails, be it individually or, or in, in groups and have weekly touch points. So there's a lot of different ways that you can, you can communicate. And I think probably forcing or trying to encourage a leader to do something that's outside of their, I'll say comfort zone or where their key strengths are is probably a mistake. I think it's having them lean into what they're good at and find their superpower.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, I think that's where you get what is authentic. Right. What's really going to help you.
And okay, so on that, that external, you mentioned the external brand, right. And the external talent development. Let's say you have a leader and you say you need to be more involved externally in helping to attract great talent. What's the simplest way kind of best bang for the buck time wise that you've observed for doing that and then maybe give me an example of someone who's done that well and the results.
Peter Zukow: So I think with any like with anything in life there's no shortcuts and, and it's what you do over a cumulative period of time. So it's not, not one thing you do on one specific day or one activity that is going to change the trajectory. It's about being intentional and consistent with your actions. So whether it's you know, being more available, you know, posting online, whether it's writing articles or thought leadership pieces externally, whether it's attending events and being visible, networking with you know, other key leaders within the industry and taking A position, whether it's things that are specific to your industry, maybe it's committing to a certain charity or a give back within the community, but it's something that you can stand by, look at your corporate values, and things that you want to do and align yourself with those and being visible.
Bart Egnal: So it's not that you're saying people have to kind of go out and actively recruit, it's more that they just have to be present in the spaces where their brand will grow and draw people to them.
Peter Zukow: I think the days of a CEO, know, squirreled away in a corner office at the top of a glass tower, is not the, is not the most effective use. It's the one who's visible and engaged and connecting with their people.
Bart Egnal: So let's go to the last point we talked about, in terms of your free advice for leaders, which is really around succession planning. You've alluded to it today. So what is it, you know, that CEO listening, that VP listening. What do they have to do? What should they be thinking about from a succession standpoint Now? Now?
Peter Zukow: Well, succession planning has changed significantly in the last couple of decades in a few ways. First is that most mid to larger sized organizations have contracted or shrunk significantly from their structure. So you think of large companies that used to have many, many layers and people could get promoted every one to two years into that next level up. And those moves were not big stretches. They were just nice, easy incremental growth where there was taking on a little bit more responsibility, a little more people, a little bit more oversight. As organizations have evolved and they've tried to become leaner and more efficient, flatter and they're flatter. The jumps for people from one level to the next is much more significant. In some cases almost insurmountable because they just don't have the skills and experiences. So that's one thing to keep in mind that has changed. So in years gone by a CEO really didn't have to think about succession because it was naturally built into their organizational structure and chart. It just happened. And now that's maybe less natural and has to be a little bit more methodical and strategic in the planning. the second is that we are facing a bit of an existential crisis as it relates to what they call it the gray tsunami. We've got, the boomers that are moving into retirement and have been hanging on a lot longer than maybe originally anticipated for a number of reasons. One is people are living longer. They want to Work longer, which is great. Others, you know, maybe, you know, got hit with a recession right before they were going to retire and decided to hang on or Covid and hung on a little longer. But ultimately these people are going to start moving out. So that's number one. Number two, you've got different cohorts of generations below that are maybe inspired or, or have different views of what their goals and dreams are for their careers.
Bart Egnal: Right.
Peter Zukow: And so you don't have necessarily that long line of people within your organization just ready, chomping at the bit to take on that next senior leadership.
Bart Egnal: And people are willing to jump. Jump. They're willing to jump for an opportunity. I think there's much less stigma in that now if you'll move to an organization.
Peter Zukow: Yeah. So given all of those, I'll call it external market dynamics or the, all of those forces that are happening around, you have to take a hard look at, at your team and, and identify where are the gaps. You know, where do I have, you know, people that are ready and, and are they ready to take on those challenges? And if I lose an individual, what does that mean, mean for me and the organization?
Bart Egnal: So you as a leader really need to be asking yourself that question. You can't expect the company to do it for you. You can't expect your HR people to do it for you. You've got to look and say, who is my successor? Am I nurturing them? Do I need to bring them in and really take that active role?
Peter Zukow: And we're seeing organizations actually now starting to proactively look externally saying I don't have a successor in the organization and I'm not going anywhere this week, week, this year, even next year. But what I want to know is I want to know who's in the marketplace that I might want to be targeting. Maybe not directly today, or maybe not even next week or next month, but I want to know, who's, in the marketplace and having that information and being, I guess, a little bit more proactive with what we call market insights. Who are the key people in your landscape that could be individual, you might want to attract into various levels of leadership within your organization. Gives you a leg up, up in advance.
Bart Egnal: Right. Okay. So we pull all this together. The picture I'm getting is, you know, sorry, you know, even leaders, even while the demands on you have grown, while the pressures are heightened, we've got to add talent management. You've got to be involved in the talent management process. You've got to be involved in understanding who your Successors are, you've got to be involved in developing your people and really this is your job. So. Okay, let's leave leaders for a moment. Moment. Let's now flip to the other side of the coin because you have all this energy being dedicated towards nurturing, developing, recruiting this talent.
Let's talk about people who aspire to climb the ladder. Maybe they're earlier in their career, maybe they're aspiring to leadership, but they're not yet at the level they want. How should they think about their own careers and kind of self talent managing? What, what would the advice you would give to them be?
Peter Zukow: Well, it's a two way street. So as much as we've sort of put the onus on leaders, to help support talent and cultivate that talent internally, it's incumbent on individuals to self direct and manage their own careers as well. So you really need to do the things that you can do to proactively promote yourself and gather the skills or the tools if you will, into the toolbox that will position you for those future opportunities when they arise that you, you will be ready. Now.
Bart Egnal: Okay, so what does that mean? Like tell me, let's go back to my director person and let's imagine because there are directors and companies who don't manage people who are, you know, extremely high performing subject matter experts. So let's say you have that person and say look, I'm a director now, but I aspire to an executive role in my career. What is that their side of the two way street look like?
Peter Zukow: The first thing that they can do is communicate that clearly to the key stakeholders within their business saying this is what I aspire to. What can you do to help me be ready for those roles? Because a lot of organizations, if they, I know that that is the case, they will invest, whether it's in coaching, whether it's in cross functional opportunities or special projects, but just sometimes merely putting up your hand, whether it's to, in a performance review or in a you know, a, a two up meeting with a, with a senior leadership team or with a VP of HR or a senior leader in hr, just acknowledging that listen, I'm, I love my job, I love what I'm doing. But when I look forward five years, this is the, I want to aspire to this level and I imagine that's.
Bart Egnal: Rarer, rarer than one might think. A lot of people probably just think that the, the organization has a plan for them and they don't say that exactly.
Peter Zukow: It's you, you, they're not Mind readers. I mean, you need to know what people are looking for. And of course a good organization that's, that's focused on their people and culture should be asking those questions. But nonetheless you can't assume that they are. So you have to take, to put.
Bart Egnal: Your hand in your control. Okay, so you put your hand up, you say, yeah, I really want to. I aspire to this next level. I aspire to manage people, whatever. Then what, what should, what's the next thing you should be doing?
Peter Zukow: So once there's a, a, determined path or whether there's an opportunity internally for the organization to support that direct line of taking on different responsibilities, there also has to be a recognition that there's other things that you can do that will help support you in that, end goal, which could be things like, like volunteering for cross functional operational projects or duties. I mean, there would be times where, you know, an organization may be doing something where they're, maybe they're bringing on some new enterprise software system or they're bringing on, they need delegates from each department or each functional area to sit on committees. They're looking at, you know, moving offices and they're having a committee that focuses on the relocation of our office. You know, little things like that can go a long way towards getting cross functional exposure within the organization, getting exposure to senior leaders and just contributing in a different way and rounding out a skill set that you may not have. As you said, you may have a, director who's got functionally, technically great expertise in one area, but getting exposed to the broader organization will just, will build that. So I think that's a huge, what.
Bart Egnal: I'm hearing is don't wait to be given those opportunities. You're gonna, you might have to put your hand up. Yeah, you might have to ask, you might have to volunteer to show with your actions that you're key on that development. Now what if those opportunities don't exist within your organization or what if there aren't enough? Okay, what does that mean? Does that mean leave the company or does that.
Peter Zukow: No, no, no. It means that you can take on some of those similar roles and responsibilities in different ways. So community involvement, maybe you're involved in some sort of, you know, community based organization, charitable or otherwise. And if you can start taking on more responsibilities, chairing committees, being involved in fundraising activities, taking on more leadership responsibilities in those capacities, they're all little things. They're, I mean you're, you're not going to get the corner office just because you volunteered at the bake sale. But at the same time you're building skills and you're demonstrating your, your, your ability and willingness to do more. I think you, you touched on a really good, I'll say coin phrase is that you kind of have to act like you're doing the job you want, not the job that you're in, in. And if you can start demonstrating that, then you will. People will naturally see you migrating into those kinds of roles. Right.
Bart Egnal: So if you're not, for example, managing people, but you sit on the charitable board and you manage a, you know, 400 person project to run an event, you can use that as an example, you know, kind of social organize.
Peter Zukow: Exactly. And most organizations, you know, of a significant size or even medium size will have, you know, whether it's, you know, social committees, DEI committees, you know, give back committees, whatever those committees are, there's always opportunities. And if the company doesn't have those, why don't you stick your startup to create one and start one. Exactly.
Bart Egnal: And then you also get the benefit of exposure to people in other roles who you wouldn't otherwise have and you build that network.
Peter Zukow: Exactly.
Bart Egnal: Well, Pierre, what this is all kind of bringing home to me is that the world of talent management has changed. And really it is something that whether you're already in leadership or you aspire to leadership, you have to kind of of bring into your consciousness that, and be, you know, with that intention around communication, intention around what you're going to, you know, do to build the relationships. Whether it's people you'll need as successors or people who you want to promote you. Like this is like a kind of like a part of your job now as a leader for sure. Is that fair? Say?
Peter Zukow: I think it is. If you look at most industries, technology m and access to information has leveled the playing field. I mean, there's not a lot of industries and organizations that can look at their competitors and absolutely stand and declare that our product or service is so much better than the competitors. There may be differences, there may be nuances, in things. But the bottom line is that the playing field has been leveled by technology and access to information. What hasn't changed in the competitive advantage for every organization is their people. It's their customer service, it's their delivery of, of, of goods and services. It's how they work with their internal stakeholders and external stakeholders. All of those pieces of the things that really differentiate a company.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, and, and you know, you can't just outsource talent management as great as IQ or the Humphrey, group. Right. We're partners. Right. And it really does start from the top. And I think that's a key differentiator.
Peter Zukow: When we advise clients, we frequently tell them that it, you know, always and never are not good places to stand on, on any issue, but particularly around talent management. So you shouldn't have to out. If you're outsourcing everything to us or any organization, then there's something fundamentally broken inside. But at the same time, you shouldn't, you shouldn't have to do every. If you do everything inside, that means you're probably missing some pieces that you need support with in order to truly, you know, reach that pinnacle of, of true, I'll call it market, mastery of talent management.
Bart Egnal: Though we could say always and never are wrong. Except when it comes to always call IQ and Peter and never. I'm not going to miss the opportunity.
Peter Zukow: Yeah. I'm not going to go that cheesy on you. I won't go down that road.
Bart Egnal: Road. Well, I can for you. Well, Peter, this has been a great conversation, getting insight into, you know, what a leading talent professional does. And thanks so much for sharing your wisdom.
If there's one final piece of, like how you can start today for people listening, what would be the simplest, quickest thing that people should do to become to bring this talent mindset into their work?
Peter Zukow: I think just start having the conversations, I think reaching out and having conversations with peers, with stakeholders, finding out what best practices look like, find out what's going on internally within your organization, but also look at companies and individuals that you respect and that you've looked up to and maybe have mentored under with. It's a great place to start because they're great sources of information.
Bart Egnal: And then I also encourage everyone to go to the IQ site, sign up for your content, you produce some great content and run some wonderful webinars. So awesome. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Peter Zukow: Thank you.
Bart Egnal: Glad we finally did it.
Peter Zukow: Absolutely. We can check the box.
Bart Egnal: Done. I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire Podcast and the conversation that I had with, our guests. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the podcast pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it. I love the comments, appreciate the reviews and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It's really how word of mouth has spread the Inspire Podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned. We'll be back in two weeks with another inspiring conversation. Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire fire.