In this episode, Bart speaks with Rabih El Khodr, author of The Way Out of Burnout, about what burnout really is, how to recognize it, and what it takes to overcome it.
Drawing on research in psychology and neuroscience as well as his own personal experiences, Rabih challenges the conventional view that burnout is the result of working too hard, arguing instead that it often stems from the gap between our authentic selves and the roles we feel we need to play at work. Central to his work is the idea that burnout begins when we start following survival scripts, a concept he pairs with his F.L.O.W. Framework, a practical approach to identifying and changing the patterns that contribute to burnout.
The conversation also offers valuable insights for leaders on how to spot burnout in their teams and support them before it becomes overwhelming. As the demands on leaders continue to intensify, Rabih's perspective offers a fresh approach to sustaining high performance without sacrificing oneself in the process.
Get a sneak peek at the introduction of Rabih's book here and watch his TEDx talk "Burnout Begins with a Script" here.
Rabih is on LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube.
00:33 Show intro
01:10 Introducing Rabih El Khodr
01:37 The topic of burnout
02:04 What is burnout, and what do we get wrong about it?
02:29 Burnout is caused by "putting on an act"
03:01 Why some hardworking leaders don't burn out
04:05 Where did it all start?
04:09 Starting a career in marketing and communications
04:57 Multiple episodes of burnout throughout his career
05:22 How a lifetime of burnout led to the book
05:47 The realization that changed his perspective on burnout
06:17 The worldview that made burnout worse
06:31 The three unachievable objectives that drive burnout
06:53 The personal experiences that shaped his thesis
08:11 The panic attack in Istanbul
09:39 What are the signs you may be experiencing burnout?
09:52 Losing interest in the activities you once loved
11:39 What causes burnout?
11:58 Introducing survival scripts
12:17 How operating on autopilot leads to burnout
12:38 The cognitive theory behind burnout
13:02 Why burnout begins at the belief level
13:19 The scripts that lead us to burnout
13:23 The Three Cs
13:29 Composure
13:41 Connection
13:53 Control
14:06 The pressure leaders feel to be perfect
15:48 Why do some people burn out while others don't?
16:12 Robin Williams and the danger of unchecked survival scripts
17:34 Why self-awareness is the path out of burnout
18:51 The self-awareness gap: 95% vs. 10–15%
20:09 How can you develop greater self-awareness?
20:36 The PONI framework
20:46 Pause
20:55 Observe
21:01 Name the emotion
21:08 Integrate it
21:12 Applying PONI to a real-world situation
23:41 The survival mode of the modern era
24:11 Why leaders deserve more empathy
25:56 The FLOW framework
26:18 Understanding the flow state
26:41 The four-step FLOW process
26:48 Face your scripts
27:47 Applying FLOW to Rabih's own journey
28:46 Burnout isn't inevitable
29:31 When is it your script, and when is it simply too many hours?
30:31 The problem with many workplace wellness programs
31:37 Can bad bosses cause burnout?
35:02 Why self-awareness is the foundation of emotional intelligence
35:58 Where to learn more about Rabih's work
36:17 Final thoughts
36:36 Outro
Rabih El Khodr: Because that's part of the premise that is prevalent in in the workplace, Bart. People believe that in order for me to be successful, I have to be burned out.
There is no trade-off. I have to sacrifice and actually-it's just the price you pay for success. Exactly. That's the ticket of entry. And my wildly ambitious contention is that it doesn't have to be this way.
You can both be successful and at the same time avoid the pitfalls of burnout, because it can be very tiring and very lonely territory when you're feeling burned out
Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal, president and CEO of the Humphrey Group.
And if you've ever asked yourself, "How can you develop an authentic leadership presence?" Or, "How can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word?" Then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life.
My guest on today's episode of the Inspire Podcast is Rabih El Khodr, and Rabih is a keynote speaker, he's an executive facilitator, and most recently, he is the author of a brand-new book. And the book, which is really, what we're here to talk about today, is The Way Out of Burnout. So Rabih, welcome to the Inspire Podcast
Rabih El Khodr: Thanks so much for having me, Burt.
Bart Egnal: Yeah I'm really happy to have you here. I know burnout has been a hot topic in in kind of the zeitgeist of professional world in the last five years. I think COVID really kickstarted the conversation around burnout, and I think for very positive reasons, it's come into the discussion. But you've written this book because your view is that burnout is often misdiagnosed and often cured or attempts to be cured in the wrong way.
So just at a quick level we'll roll it back a bit, but what is burnout and what do we get wrong about it?
Rabih El Khodr: So the basic definition of burnout is a state of mental, physical, and emotional exhaustion. You're gonna find folks using that phrase, "I feel exhausted." That's usually a telltale sign of somebody experiencing a bout of burnout.
Now, what most people believe is that burnout is caused by chronic stress, overworking, not having enough work-life balance, right?
My contention is that burnout is not caused by chronic stress. It's actually caused by putting on an act. And what do I mean by that? Lots of folks, especially in the workplace, they go about their careers in a very performative aspect.
So they play out roles in public that do not necessarily reflect their actual person, and the extending of that act for a long period of time leads to burnout, and I've identified three main reasons why folks- ... go through that performative aspect.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, and I think it's such a fascinating perspective because you're right, burnout is something that people say, "I've been working too much," and as you say in your TED Talk, "Oh, I should just, go to Bali and do yoga, and then I'll come back restored."
And yet we see that some leaders, in, in my work with leaders, in The Humphrey Group's work with leaders, some leaders work incredible hours and yet are incredibly engaged, right? They're energized. They're loving it. They don't experience this, whereas others, seem to just be exhausted. And so what I think's so fascinating about your book and the conversation we're gonna have is the focus on authenticity.
If you're not authentically leading, if you're not leading from a place of truth and conviction, it... you will burn out. So I think for any leader listening now, this need to be authentic and to play an authe- a, a true character is fundamental to success. So we're gonna dive in. I'm excited for it.
I think any- anyone in leadership is gonna find this conversation valuable. But let's roll it back to to before you wrote a book on burnout, before y- you, you burned out yourself. Where did it all start for you?
Rabih El Khodr: If I were to stroll back down memory lane with you, my career started in marketing communications.
I worked both on the agency side and the client side of things. This is where I caught the communication bug and got excited about copywriting, public speaking, and how- ... to convey emotions through storytelling. The pivot happened afterwards into broader human resources and specifically talent development.
So I worked also in-house through talent development mandates and also through client-facing mandates, providing training offerings to to members of the public.
Bart Egnal: And did you find were you experiencing burnout during the-- this-- these phases of your career? Were you energized? What was your personal energy level like?
Rabih El Khodr: Interestingly enough, even though I used to love my lines of work respectively, I've always had multiple episodes of burnout- ... throughout my career and my life- ... which eventually led to the epiphany behind the book because the starting of the book-writing process coincided with my fortieth birthday.
And as it's prevalent that at forty a lot of people experience that jolt of clarity and purpose. Yes. It was the case for me, and I-- the epiphany was quite striking. I realized that throughout my life, I've experienced multiple bouts of burnout as early as ten years old, but I always- For real?
found a way out of the burnout. And that's the title of the book, Helping Folks Finding Their Way Out of Burnout.
Bart Egnal: So I wanna dive into that, this epiphany. So you hit forty, and you realize you, you've gone through peaks and valleys And, when you came to that realization, what path did it lead you on?
Rabih El Khodr: It was a very insightful journey writing the book, because through the book, I've actually unpacked a lot of the burnout episodes that on the surface were all about working too hard- ... stretching myself too thin. But if you looked down the layers of those experiences, you would realize there were lots of issues pertaining to psychology, self-esteem, self-confidence, and also an approach and a viewpoint about the world- that actually exacerbated the burnout episodes and led to the multiple frequencies of them, and that's really the cornerstone theory of the book. I believe that folks get into burnout because they're trying to achieve three unachievable objectives, which are to manage expectations, earn approval, or stay in control you hit 40, and a lot of terrible things happen, and this is what prompts this epiphany. So you share this in your book and in your TED Talk. What happened that kind of led to this new direction for you in writing this book?
So in 2020, the world was upended because of the COVID pandemic. My 2020 was equally devastating but because of a successive series of blows that hit me.
On August 4th, 2020, I miraculously survived the Beirut port explosion. I was one kilometer away from- Wow ... the blast site. Six days later, without any illness of any kind my father suddenly passes away. I was all alone in the country going through the aftermath of the explosion and having to deal with that loss as well.
My wife was pregnant as at the time, so we were hoping that the arrival of our first child would be the light at the end of the tunnel. Unfortunately, there were complications during the delivery, and six days after his birth our first son passes away. After the fact-
Bart Egnal: just horrible.
I just have to say, just a horrible series of events in the time when the world was already reeling. So just I can imagine this was a, a, a huge peak moment of stress for you.
Rabih El Khodr: It was absolutely the peak the peak of the, the successive experiences of burnout, which led to the panic attack in Istanbul that I reference in- my, my TED Talk. And eventually, all of this process led to the 40th birthday, the realizations, and the self-healing journey- ... that ended up being the writing of the book. And I'm hoping that the book will help others who are experiencing those frequent multiple bouts of burnout really dig deep and find a definitive way out of burnout.
That's my ultimate goal- ... behind the book.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. And so it was It no longer, if I'm putting words in your mouth, you could no longer just paper over these episodes. You had to step back and say, "Look, I've been dealing with this my whole life. I need to reflect on why I keep burning out, what the r- what the root causes of it are, and determine, how to move forward."
And that was really the book, the process of the book.
Rabih El Khodr: Absolutely. Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So let's look at the book, because I think everyone listening, and I'll say myself, I've experienced periods of burnout. And, often it's, I'm feeling, I'm like, "What do I do about it? How do I go on?"
And, as an entrepreneur, y- you can't leave . I... That is one thing about an owner of a business. You are committed, and you can't just walk away. You can't take a sabbatical. It never stops. So it's it's like war without end sometimes. So you define the clinical version of burnout, but I think before we get to the way out of burnout in the book, for people listening, what are some signs that you may be experiencing burnout?
Rabih El Khodr: That's a great question, and it widely differs according to different people, but there's usually a through line- Okay ... of symptoms and experiences. The first being if there is one or many activities that you really enjoy doing that all of a sudden you stop doing cold turkey- ... and you have a hard time returning to, that's a telltale sign of you getting into burnout territory.
For, for me, it was the activity of tennis. I used to play it competitively when I was younger. I used to enjoy it a lot as I grew older, but then all of a sudden I stopped, and it ended up becoming an inside joke with my wife- Sure ... because every time we would walk past a tennis court, I would just stop-
watch other people play, and get into a foul mood afterwards- ... but not actually take the- ... tennis racket and get onto the court. Okay. So that's one telltale sign. The other, and it's more subtle, and it might be useful for your audience listening to this, if somebody says something- ... and behaves in a different way, that's usually an indicator, especially when it comes to the verbiage that they use.
If somebody is listening in closely to a star performer- ... and they're starting to use phrases and words that reflect a sense of lack of energy- ... lack of purpose, or just coasting through, that's usually a sign that they are in this exhaustion space, at least mentally, that could lead them to a more acute state of burnout.
Bart Egnal: So it's really signs of depletion, signs that you're not able to take joy from the things that you normally do. These are signs of burnout.
Rabih El Khodr: Absolutely. Yeah. And it manifests itself more acutely- ... with a desire to just get things done, Interesting ... at a minimal effort possible- ... without putting in the extra effort that one would have usually placed or without having this hunger and desire to really exceed expectations.
Bart Egnal: What are the causes of this burnout? And I know you talked about the fact that it's not workload, b- that some people can have extremely high workload and not experience burnout, whereas others do get burnout. So what's the root cause?
Rabih El Khodr: And this is where we get into the thick of the book and the theory behind it.
Through my research and based on my lived experience, I've coined the concept of survival scripts. Consider them subconscious behavioral prompts that every single one of us write early in our lives in order to learn how to navigate with the dangers that are surrounding us, whatever those dangers may be.
And those subconscious behavioral prompts get us on autopilot in terms of our behavior, and they eventually lead us straight into the wall of burnout, and this is how we crash.
Bart Egnal: And this and this, as you said in your book, this is your own experiences, but it's also neuroscience, right? That you've grounded in that research, too.
Rabih El Khodr: Absolutely. If you look at the, the tenets of cognitive behavioral theory, what I coin the B2B continuum of beliefs, thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, they are basically the cornerstone of human activity and human behavior. And what I did through my research and based on my lived experience is identify how burnout is placed along this- b2B continuum. So-
Bart Egnal: Okay ...
Rabih El Khodr: lots of folks believe that burnout lives at the behavior level.
My contention is that we need to go three steps downstream in that continuum, and burnout actually lives at the belief level- ... which is where the concept of the survival scripts- ... comes.
Bart Egnal: Okay, and what are the three scripts that lead us to burnout?
Rabih El Khodr: Yeah. So based on my research and based on my lived experience, I've identified three survival scripts. They all begin with the letter C, so it's easier to remember. The first one is the script of composure. So basically, your inner voice would tell you, "Don't let anyone see you break down." The second one is the survival script of connection.
And this is where your inner voice would tell you, "Don't lose them," the people that you find valuable to you. And the third one, which I've coined like the final boss of survival scripts- ... is the control script, which is a very stoic, menacing inner voice that- ... admonishes you and warns you, "Don't you dare fall apart."
Bart Egnal: Yeah. These, these ones really resonate, and I think particularly for leaders. They're told that, they always are being watched, they always have to be in control, right? And they can never lose their composure. And so it's very... often, many leaders we work with have received guidance early in their careers to create this almost robot- I won't say ro- robotic, but really carefully controlled and tightly managed persona of leadership.
And- Absolutely ... and I do think there has been a change in-- since COVID. The word authenticity has emerged much more for leaders, vulnerability. But I know that people want more connection, and they want more authenticity. So I can see that would be jarring as well for leaders who have spent their time in this kind of control box.
Rabih El Khodr: And Bart, imagine living your entire k- life and going through the different echelons of your career building this Teflon-like exoskeleton- ... where your inner voice keeps repeating to you on autopilot, "Don't let them see you break"- ... "don't lose them, and don't fall apart." So it's gonna create a shock for people when they hear this new piece of advice that tells them actually you need to do the opposite.
And you have to actually allow yourself to potentially have a, a breakdown in order to have a breakthrough, with the caveat, obviously, of dosing those elements of vulnerability and sharing with your corporate workforce. Because a lot of it is internal work. And the result of that internal work would surface eventually as this authenticity piece and this vulnerability aspect that you've mentioned.
Bart Egnal: So with these scripts, composure, connection, and control, why do some people suffer burnout or in leadership roles and others don't? Is it that those who don't have these scripts, or what is the difference?
Rabih El Khodr: So what's interesting and I've, I share multiple case studies of successful celebrities in the book that when the- Oh, give us one.
Bart Egnal: Let's have one.
Rabih El Khodr: So let's take the example of Robin Williams.
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Rabih El Khodr: Robin Williams has been a fantastic icon in- He has ... in the entertainment industry, beloved for his quick wits his amazing creativity.
Bart Egnal: Amazing actor. W- watching, whether it's Good Will Hunting or Mrs. Doubtfire, he was a legend.
Rabih El Khodr: The range that he had from- ... good Will Hunting up to Aladdin and I said, I mentioned this in the book they had to extend the role of the genie character- ... in the Aladdin movie just because he did so many improvised takes of the voicing of the character. What happened with him, and he said this w- in an interview with Barbara Walters, he experienced what he called the love-me syndrome.
So his way of actually fighting his bouts of anxiety and depression was to actually seek out this connection with his audience. He would experience the highest of highs on stage making people laugh, but as soon as he went backstage, he would experience the lowest and lo- of lows, and that led him to experience many of the pitfalls throughout his, his- life. This exemplifies when a script gets so calcified into our psyche that you can no longer separate between the inner voice, the script talking to you- ... and your actual voice, and this is the danger for leaders in- ... the corporate workplace. When you don't work out your self-awareness muscle- Right
and you actually work, do that inner work in order for you to identify what are the different voices that are actually articulating my thinking process and eventually influencing my behavior, this is the risk. The leaders who do not get into burnout are the ones who probably have this heightened level of self-awareness and who know the s- the wording of their scripts and when they actually try to kick in, and they don't let them take over the entirety of the, the motherboard, so to speak.
Bart Egnal: So it's not that the successful leaders are the ones who are b- successful in this case in terms of their ability to manage burnout It's not that successful leaders don't have these narratives, inner narratives. They might have the voice saying, "Look, you have to create connection," or, "You have to, in this situation, maintain your composure."
Because those are important qualities in high-stake situations. But what you're saying is they're able to be self-aware of the need in that moment and so authentically play that part, but it doesn't overwhelm them day to day. Is that it?
Rabih El Khodr: Absolutely. The, the-- one of, one of the elements that will help us find our way out of burnout, and a cornerstone element actually, is that self-awareness piece.
Because a lot of times, leadership training focuses on the external surface-level behavior, so what words to use, not to use, what behaviors to exhibit, not exhibit- ... what best practices to adopt, what are the ones to avoid. Very little leadership training focuses on the inner world of the leader. And that's usually delegated, and rightfully to the realm of psychology and to the realm- ... of mindfulness. That's all good and is important, but for folks who don't want to get too deep into psychology- ... this s- what I'm hoping is that through the body of work that I'm sharing with the world, you can begin to have just enough of that inner work that can help you play the role of the modern leader that the workforce craves, which is an authentic leader, one that can express vulnerability without shying away from it, and one that can really empathize with the realities of the workforce, especially after the COVID pandemic and the way it has upended the way- we both per- perceive work and the way we experience it.
Bart Egnal: So self-awareness. Let's dive into it. And, there's a statistic I pulled according to research by organizational psychologist Dr. Tasha Eurich. 95% of people believe that they are self-aware, and yet when she did a a multi-year study using scientific metrics across 5,000 people, only 10 to 15% of people- Whoa
possess this critical skill. So- That's wild ... wild diversion. So let's... So here I am. Let's imagine that I was a client. Let's imagine I'm experiencing burnout. How would you work, encourage me to work on my self-awareness?
Rabih El Khodr: So one artifact that I've shared in the book is called the PONI process. Okay. P-O-N-I.
If you want to practice your self-awareness muscle-
...
Rabih El Khodr: I would recommend that you first pause whenever you are experiencing a negative event or you're feeling rattled up.
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Rabih El Khodr: Observe the actual happenings in terms of your physiology and in terms of your thinking. Name the emotion that
you are experiencing, and integrate it as part of your inner world processing what has just happened.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So let's imagine, I don't know, we've had a difficult week or month. We've lost some, we had some client work that we were hoping would happen and for whatever reason, clients said no, they walked away.
And then I'm feeling anxious, I'm feeling stressed about this. So this is the process I would follow. So I would pause and think about that, and then- Oh, I would be- I would be
Rabih El Khodr: basically observing- Observing it ... what sort of manifestations are happening within you. For example, you might have snapped at a coworker- as part of the debrief of this client decision. You could have done something that is out of character in terms- ... of your workplace behavior. You might have felt a flutter in your heart or shallowness- ... in terms of increased r- rapid breathing. All of these observations, you'd be surprised how, similar to the statistic you shared earlier- a lot of people are not deeply in tune with their physiological- ... and emotional reality to actually even notice them. They just glide by those very clear indicators of dysregulation. So once you go through the pausing- Okay ... and the observing, this is the, the-- With practice, you would be able to actually label those emotions, because that's another area of improvement for lots of folks.
The ability to actually label the emotion. We don't have enough practice with the vocabulary of emotional expression- ... to identify emotions. So for example, a wheel of emotions could be very helpful to- ... get you practicing how to express labeling those emotions. And eventually, the integrating part can take longer, but it's actually you coming to terms with, "This is how I behave.
That behavior was actually anchored in an emotional response that I had, and that emotional response was anchored in a thought- ... that I either had consciously or subconsciously."
And where does that all stem from? It stems from a belief that maybe I'm not worth, ... that business that I just built.
It can get that deep- ... and it just manifested itself with you snapping at your coworker. How would you be able- ... to link all through that in the continuum? It's gonna require a lot of inner work, and sometimes the help of a professional third party who's gonna ask you thought-provoking questions.
It could be a coach, it could be a licensed therapist. Whoever is in your corner to help you lift the veil from the day-to-day, because let's face it Bert, lots of folks are running on autopilot- ... simply because they have to. This is what I call the survival mode of this modern era- where you have to keep up with inflation, pay the bills, worry about your future and the future of your kids. So a lot of people that- And for
Bart Egnal: leaders they're running on, "Am I gonna be replaced by AI? Am I gonna..." What are the profits we're delivering? What's the quarter? There's unrelenting pressure on leaders now.
Rabih El Khodr: Exactly. And actually I feel lots of empathy with leaders- ... because usually they're painted as the bad people or the ones that we can talk about their backs because we can or it's nice to. But the incredible amount of pressure that they go through, not only because of the demands of their organizations and their mandate, but also on a personal level, which is compounded by so many different factors like cultural upbringing- generational positioning gender identity, all of these different aspects I allude to some of them in the book as well. They can actually exacerbate the burnout experience, which could lead to people feeling constantly exhausted.
Bart Egnal: So once you start using this PONY framework You're beginning to become self-aware.
You're not, obviously, I think it's worth stating, you're not gonna eliminate events that cause you stress or dif- distress or emotional anxiety, right? That doesn't happen, because that's just life and the nature of being a leader. But what you're saying is you- you're, it's not gonna subconsciously hijack your actions and behaviors, right?
You're gonna be able to step back and become aware of it, and therefore mitigate how you respond. Is that right?
Rabih El Khodr: Exactly. And remember what we had said, the initial premise is that people are burning out because they're putting on an act.
When you implement that PONI process, you're basically putting little speed bumps in between the elements of belief, beliefs, thoughts, emotions, and behavior.
So with those fractional speed bumps in between the different parts of what I call the B2B continuum, you're actually allowing yourself to reclaim your agency. Because you're no longer on autopilot, and you're no longer playing that role- ... which you have faceted and crafted for so many years.
Bart Egnal: And then you have, with the self-awareness, then you have another framework, FLOW that you can start to put into practice. So what does FLOW stand for? And then maybe you could take us into one of the components of it.
Rabih El Khodr: Absolutely. The, the hero framework of the book is the FLOW framework. It's definitely inspired by the concept of flow- which we alluded to earlier in the tennis experience. Whenever I used to be on the tennis court, I used to be in the zone. I couldn't feel time flying by. I would be focusing on every ball coming my way. The I was in the here and the now, enjoying it to the fullest. This is what people experience while being in a state of flow doing different sorts of activities.
So taking that concept of flow, I've came up with this four-step FLOW process that can help people find their way out of burnout, and the first element of it, the letter F stands for Facing your scripts-
...
Rabih El Khodr: Which ties nicely to the piece of self-awareness that we talked about earlier.
Bart Egnal: So f- facing your scripts if you think about the Robin Williams example, what would that have meant for him?
Rabih El Khodr: He successfully faced his scripts- He did, okay ... at one point- ... in his life, where he realized the connection between his behavior and his beliefs, and that was the period of time where he was sober for the longest time. E-eventually, unfortunately, he relapsed and that led or contributed to his unfortunate demise in 2014.
But at the end of the day, m-being aware of the linkages between our inherent beliefs and our behaviors could be the eureka moment- ... that can stop the burnout train in its tracks and allow us to change tracks so that in order not to go ahead the wall of burnout, we are hitting the wall of productivity- and fulfillment and reaching better destinations.
Bart Egnal: And what did that look like for you when you had that, epiphany brought on by a terrible series of events and burnout? What did the F in FLOW look like for you?
Rabih El Khodr: For me, as the author of the book, it translated into nearly a year of successive mini epiphanies and discoveries- and full circle moments that got translated into the book. And that realization can be very powerful, Bart, simply because I described it in my TED Talk as this "of course" moment. That sudden realization that it was something so obvious in front of you, but now you can actually touch it, c- make it concrete, and do something about it.
That's the most important piece. And as people are going to walk through the four-step FLOW framework, it's going to be a very practical way to re-empower themselves to not succumb to the inevitability of burnout, because that's part of the premise that is prevalent in- ... in the workplace, Bart.
People believe that in order for me to be successful, I have to be burnt out.
There is no trade-off. I have to sacrifice and actually- It's
Bart Egnal: just the price you pay
Rabih El Khodr: for success. Exactly. That's the ticket of entry. And my wildly ambitious contention is that it doesn't have to be this way. You can both be successful and at the same time avoid the pitfalls of burnout, because it can be very tiring and very lonely territory when you're feeling burned out.
Bart Egnal: So let me ask you a couple questions. So let's imagine you have someone who Is working, 60, 70, 80 hours a week, and they love it, but they are feeling burnt out. When is it a script, and when is it just the hours?
Rabih El Khodr: That's a great question, and one easy way to figure out the difference is for you to try and adopt your traditional productivity techniques that can help alleviate some of that pressure.
Because if it's only a workload and pressure issue, we might be looking at your staples: time management- ... delegation, possible overstretching of the role. So these are all structural and interpersonal. They could alleviate some of the pressure. If you do all of that and you're still feeling that mental, physical, emotional exhaustion, that could be a sign of we need to do some deeper inner work, because it's no longer about the surface-level exterior elements.
It's more about your internal belief system, because that's the core. What you believe is gonna cascade into your thoughts, your emotions, and eventually your behavior. And this is why, and this might be a hot take, not to say that there's anything wrong with them or that they cannot be helpful at times, but the problem with wellness programs that are deployed at the organizational level is that they focus on that behavior terminal piece- of the continuum. And it's-- the, the contention is that if we give enough resources for our employees, they're smart enough, they're adults- ... they would be able to pull take themselves out of that burnout situation. M- my contention is that we need to empower the employee and give psychological safety- to the employee in order to admit that they are burnt out, in order to have that internal work done, in order for them to come back stronger and exhibit those behaviors of vulnerability and au- authenticity that would actually benefit the organization because they would be having- ... a better time in the workloads, and they could extend their tenure within the organization- because they're feeling good.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, no, I think that's a, that is a good hot take. Okay, another, another question for you. Bad bosses causing burnout or not? What's your take on it?
Rabih El Khodr: A- and that's an interesting take because I'm not here to define burnout exclusively the way I portray it in my book. And it's not necessarily the only way to define burnout.
At the same time, there are contributing elements that make burnout more present in one's life. Bad managerial skills is one of them. But let's take the, the corner of the bad manager between- ... invisible quotations.
We're calling them bad. Let's ask ourselves what is it that they believe about themselves in the first place? Some of them might believe that I don't deserve this. Some of them might believe I'm not ready for this. Some of them might believe I've been thrown into the deep end- ... of the pool too early.
All of these, they can create behaviors that we in the culture label as poor managerial skills- ... but maybe they are cries for help from somebody- ... who's been thrown into a managerial role, and they're not ready for it, or they don't want it.
Bart Egnal: Maybe they're, maybe they have scripts where they cannot be out of control, or they cannot lose their people, right?
So maybe it's really fascinating as we think about this conversation, some of the things that you've described when we were talking about the PONY framework around not being aware, self-aware of the behaviors that you're demonstrating that may... you mentioned, you're snapping at someone.
You're not treating your staff right. This really is not just you as an individual contributor, but thinking about leadership, and you may be unintentionally impacting your people if you're not dealing with these internal scripts that are guiding you.
Rabih El Khodr: Which eventually influences the bottom line because instead of us focusing on our attrition rate and what can we do in order to make our employer brand- more appealing for possible recruits, why don't you work on the actual state of mind of our- ... current leadership roster in order for them to manifest the behaviors that would actually lead to employees wanting to stick around longer?
Bart Egnal: What I love about your book and your framework is just the idea that burnout is not what you think, right?
It's not just driven by workload. And I think it's so fascinating because when you look at some... I think back, I think over my career, the, I've had the great privilege of working with a huge range of executives across industries, seniorities, and what's amazing is how many are energized by what, by jobs that others would view as overwhelming, demanding, whereas others, are just done, right?
And I think what you've really hit on is it's not the hours. It's not even, how tough the work is. It's really the cognitive dissonance that lies between the, the scripts that we're telling ourselves and what's going on in our life. And so the, the most successful leaders have to develop this self-awareness, and so that allows them to be more authentic and more and consequently lead more sustainably in this time that we're in.
Rabih El Khodr: Absolutely. We always talk about the, the merits and the importance of emotional intelligence. The main pillar of emotional intelligence that I believe every single leader should heavily invest in is that self-awareness piece. Because like we saw in our conversation, it ties to so much more than being aware of your own emotions.
It can actually influence your appreciation of your career and your professional life, and it could actually affect the people with whom you are interacting around you in the workplace.
Bart Egnal: I'm really glad you wrote the book, and you've got a TED Talk already. So for people listening who wanna get the book, we're gonna link to it in the show notes.
We'll link to your TED Talk as well. It's a great and very vulnerable speech you give, where you talk about, the genesis of the book and the framework. So I encourage everyone to give it a listen.
Rabih El Khodr: Absolutely. And if you don't mind, Burt, I would love to throw in the introduction- Oh, yeah
of the book to your listeners. Oh, let's bring it. And that way they can have a sneak peek. Let's bring it.
Bart Egnal: Let's do it. Yeah, we can we can put a link on it in the show notes as well. Where can people who wanna learn more and work with you go?
Rabih El Khodr: They can find me on LinkedIn. My handle is Rabih Speaks, so that's R-A-B-I-H, and the word speaks in one word.
And the same for the website. It's rabihspeaks.com. There you can find everything about what I do as a keynote speaker and an executive facilitator. The book will be out in the fall of 2026, and let's all collectively find our way out of burnout.
Bart Egnal: I love it. Rabih, thanks for writing the book, and thanks for being a guest on the Inspire Podcast.
Rabih El Khodr: Thanks so much, Burt
Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire Podcast and the conversation that I had with our guest. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.
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Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire