In this episode of the Inspire Podcast, Bart Egnal welcomes Jennifer Gabriele, Partner and National Leader, Leadership & Team Development at Humance and co-author of The Inspirational Leader.
Drawing on insights from her research and work with leaders across Canada, Jennifer explores how leadership has evolved in the wake of COVID and what it takes to manage and inspire teams in today's workplace. She discusses the shift toward shared leadership, the importance of executive presence, and why authenticity matters more than charisma.
Jennifer goes on to share practical lessons from her book, including the difference between clarity and certainty, the power of curiosity, cultivating excellence, and why managerial courage is critical for navigating difficult decisions. As a renowned executive coach and facilitator to many of Quebec's leading organizations and companies across Canada, Jennifer brings these ideas to life through real-world stories and actionable insights in a lively conversation between two people passionate about leadership communication.
00:32 Show intro
01:10 Welcoming Jennifer
01:43 The Inspirational Leader
01:57 What's the book about and why did you write it?
02:13 What makes a great leader?
03:32 What is Jennifer's story that led her to Humance?
03:51 We brand companies but not humans. Why not?
04:25 Products have far fewer dimensions than a person
04:36 Coca-Cola example
05:41 Her practice before Humance: executive branding
06:00 Why some persuade and others don't
06:36 The move to Humance
08:40 Acquiring Lord Communication
09:21 Focus on managers and executives
11:35 Interviewing leaders for the book: what did you find?
12:48 Themes that emerged from her qualitative research
13:02 Misplaced nostalgia for the "good old days"
13:47 Shared leadership
14:10 The impact of COVID on work culture
14:28 The amount and quality of presence required
14:44 During COVID, managers thought they needed to be 24/7 present
15:32 Bart discusses the decline in deference
16:27 Society has changed, too
16:34 Shortage of labour
17:31 What does it mean to be an inspirational leader?
18:15 You don't need to speak like Barack Obama; you just need to walk the talk
19:28 Getting people to follow you
19:49 Authority doesn't work. People need to believe in you
19:58 Passive-aggressive resistance to directive-style leadership
20:47 Three rules for inspiring leadership
21:23 The importance of having communication goals
25:19 The difference between clarity and certainty
25:43 What is cultivating excellence?
25:58 If you want to be an inspirational leader, you can't be a know-it-all
26:50 Example of the curious leader
27:20 How does curiosity tie to cultivating excellence?
27:54 Setting a standard for what excellence looks like
28:13 Teasing out unrealistic expectations and perfectionism vs. a healthy pursuit of excellence
28:48 Try your best vs. try not to make mistakes
29:11 How can leaders communicate this?
29:38 Don't hide if you don't know something
29:51 Instead of "Why did you do this?" say "How do we fix this?"
30:55 Example of dealing with a high-performing but toxic employee
32:18 Managerial courage
33:33 You lose talent if you're not a courageous leader
34:13 What did you learn from writing The Inspirational Leader?
35:47 Thank-yous
36:10 Show outro
Show Transcript:
Jennifer Gabriele: I had a lot of people that were like, "Well, I'm an introvert, and so how can I be inspiring?" And we have this idea that we should all be Barack Obama, for instance, in our communication skills. And to the contrary, I've noticed that even introverts that speak very little can be extremely inspiring in their demeanor, in their presence, in the way they, they move in terms of not...
I'm talking, I'm not talking about the non-verbal, but the courage that they can bring to the table. So for me, inspiring is, one of the first things is walk the talk.
Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal, President and CEO of The Humphrey Group.
And if you've ever asked yourself, "How can you develop an authentic leadership presence?" Or, "How can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word?" Well, then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life
So my guest on today's episode of the Inspire Podcast is Jennifer Gabriele. And Jennifer, you are the national practice leader for leadership and team development Humance. Welcome to the Inspire Podcast.
Jennifer Gabriele: Thank you so much, Bart.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, and thank you for coming. We're doing, this is the first of, this, of season eight, you are the first in-person podcast.
You flew all the way from Montreal. Thank you for being here. It's a pleasure to have you.
Jennifer Gabriele: So I really like to be in 3D instead of always in 2D, so you get me in, you know, you get me in 3D today.
Bart Egnal: We get the full Jennifer experience.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly.
Bart Egnal: Yes. And, and for those of you listening, in front of us on the table is a copy of The Inspirational Leader, subtitled The 10 Rules of Leadership Communication.
This is a book that you co-wrote with Isabelle Lord. Congratulations on your book. What's the book about and why did you [00:02:00] write it?
Jennifer Gabriele: Well, thank you, Bart. So first of all, it was a book that was re-edited, so it's a second edition of this book, and it was really a project that we've had for a few years, actually.
The story of this book is really that obsession that we both have, Isabelle and myself, on what makes a great leader, what makes a g- an inspirational leader, and this is something that she looked into 10 years ago, and obviously things have changed a little bit over the last 10 years in the workplace and in leadership development.
And so we decided this would be a, a great project to work on together. And for your information, this book was reinvented 75%, so there's a few things that are still there- Right ... but I will tell you for the most part it's a brand-new book.
Bart Egnal: The, the bones are there, but it's a, it's a new product.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly.
Bart Egnal: Yeah.
Well, I, I know we'll talk about the book. We'll talk about some of the rules. We'll talk about what it means to inspire because as you said, you know, the world has changed so much in the years since it was first written and, and I think what, you [00:03:00] know, I know through this c- podcast, what people need to inspire is very different today.
Jennifer Gabriele: Absolutely.
Bart Egnal: but before we do that, you know, you're, you're one of the many great colleagues I've, I've now had the privilege and pleasure of working with at Humance. You're responsible not just for, you know, leadership communication, but for our entire national practice around leadership and team development.
I know you're, you're sought after by some of the top, firms across Canada, but it didn't start there, so let's, like, let's go way back. Tell me about how you got into this line of work. You're an entrepreneur, and, like, what's your story that led you to Humance?
Jennifer Gabriele: So I've always been very, very intrigued in what makes people attracted to other people, and so prior to-
Bart Egnal: So you were gonna start a dating site?
Jennifer Gabriele: I should, actually. You know? I should. I should. But, before Humance, I was an entrepreneur for 10 years, and I started a practice where I really became... And I like to use the word obsessed, and not in a negative way, to why is it possible that we brand a company and we don't brand a [00:04:00] human? And so that led me to working with a lot of executives throughout the years, new executives, executives that have been in place for such a long time, helping them get to where they really wanted to get and have a brand that was coherent, cohesive, and that people could actually follow, so-
Bart Egnal: So why...
And I'm curious, like, why do we brand companies and why... And not leaders? What did you conclude? Hmm
Jennifer Gabriele: Well, it was so much easier to take a product that has not that many dimensions Mm-hmm so like for instance, the example I often give is Coca-Cola. It's fascinating. It's a sugary drink that's not that great for your health, right?
Bart Egnal: No.
Jennifer Gabriele: I'm breaking- Lies ... I'm breaking dreams today.
Bart Egnal: So am
Jennifer Gabriele: I. But Diet Coke's okay, right? Diet Coke. Sure, Bart. Tell me it's okay. Tell me it's okay. Sure, Bart. And yet they're major sponsors of the Olympics. An unhealthy drink found its way to be... A- and here is not where I wanna have the debate, I just find it very fascinating that we take a [00:05:00] very binary product, you know, that doesn't have that many dimensions, and we create a personality out of it So now you take a human that has so many dimensions and is so much more deep, and we, we don't try to create a, a certain coherence, right?
And we don't take the time to s- take a step back and say, "What are the strengths I wanna showcase? What are the s- the elements that I wanna show the world?" We kind of hope- Hmm ... that people are gonna pick up on those things and discover us as if we were Hollywood stars, you know- Right ... walking down the street.
So this is actually a very conscious or intentional, if you may, way of saying, "These are things that I wanna showcase, I wanna show the world, and I wanna bring to the table in companies."
Bart Egnal: So was that y- That was the genesis of your business, to help executives approach their own brand with that level of intention?
Jennifer Gabriele: Yes. And also comes the whole communication part-
Bart Egnal: Mm-hmm ...
Jennifer Gabriele: where, how do you present a project? How do you push through something that's unpopular? And it [00:06:00] was always fascinating where there was people that you never kind of saw in the shadows, and all of a sudden they would come up to the s- to the negotiation table and get their way.
And then there was other people that would, you know, research and work and have the expertise, and they would bring the same idea to the table and had no impact. So these really intrigued me throughout, you know, being in board meetings or executive meetings and seeing that there was certain people that got pull, and others, even though they had substance- Right
didn't have any pull.
Bart Egnal: So you're, you're merging these ideas of brand, leadership communication, and you're, you're doing this within your own firm. Now, what led you to Humance?
Jennifer Gabriele: Aha. So that's a good question. So one of the partners that's, still at Humance, I knew because I was working with his firm at the, at the time before he joined Humance, always kept contact, so that's one of his super strengths.
Bart Egnal: And who's this? Alain Dumas
Jennifer Gabriele: Our CEO. He always, you know, once a year had a lunch with me and was like, "Oh, it's really interesting what you're doing," and things like that. And let's say I had had my company for eight years, and he was like, "Oh, you know, maybe one day you could come and join," at the time it was called SPB, now it's called Humance.
And I was like, "Yeah, no." "I'm doing my thing. I have my employees. I'm independent, and I'm very independent." So I was like, "Yeah, thanks, but I, I don't see it," you know? Year after that- "Listen, I've, I've thought about it," and a year later, so he was very patient
Bart Egnal: he played the long game with you.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly.
Very long game. And he was like, "Listen, I thought of it, and we could carve out, you know, like, a special place for you." And I'm like, "Eh, well, maybe," but, you know, very important for me, no micromanagement for me. And so he's like, "No, no, no, I've got the perfect person, and you know her," which was Julie Carignan, is another partner that's been there forever at, at Humance.
And I was like, "Okay, well, I have to meet her. I, I'm not sure this is gonna work, but whatever."
Bart Egnal: We'll see what her [00:08:00] brand is.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly. And so it took a good two years, a solid two years to convince me, and we've spoken about this. After 10 years of having your own company-
Bart Egnal: Mm-hmm ...
Jennifer Gabriele: there's things that kind of become redundant.
It- and you have a choice to make. Either you grow organically or you have to purchase another company to grow the company. That's where I was at. So I was really at a crossroad, and I decided to jump ship. And they g- they gave me a great opportunity to, to develop a practice, and they gave me, and they, they sta- they stuck to their word in giving me, you know, a sandbox that I could play in.
Bart Egnal: Yes. Yes, and so here you are. And so now today you run our national leadership practice. F- if we fast-forward, so you join, Humance then buys another company, and they buy Lorde. And for those listening, I've come to really know and appreciate Lorde as a institution in Quebec, but I don't think people outside Quebec know it.
So tell us very briefly about the company and how it built its reputation and why Humance bought it.
Jennifer Gabriele: So it stems from Isabelle [00:09:00] Lorde, so it's not because we wanted to call it Lorde. It's
Bart Egnal: not Lor- it's not Lorde of the training. It's- Exactly. No, maybe
Jennifer Gabriele: it is. Although it is. Yeah, that's it. so Isabelle Lorde started the company prior to us meeting her about 10 years ago.
She was a former director in a large financial institution and was very specialized in communications. So she started this company where sh- Lorde Communication really focuses on the competency of c- of communication, but especially for managers, executives. we got interested in that company in tw- in 2020.
She was thinking of taking her retirement at some point and was looking not only to sell, so that's the interesting part, not only to sell but to find someone that was gonna take back the reins.
Bart Egnal:
Jennifer Gabriele: Well, I was- If only
Bart Egnal: there was someone. If only.
Jennifer Gabriele: And so- Right ... Alain had met her and he said, "Well, I think I have the perfect person to fit."
So I met Isabelle in [00:10:00] 2020. We had a few chats, and we started the process- Mm-hmm ... of acquiring Lord Communication.
Bart Egnal: And I, and I think it's worth, just for people listening who might not know, you know, Lord in some ways is very similar to the Humphrey Group. You know? Absolutely. So both of us are firms that sit at this intersection of leadership and communication.
Both of us have training with our own, you know, intellectual capital. Both have strong, dynamic female founders who wrote books, a- and both also are active in women's leadership. So I think there's real, you know, overlap in terms of where we see the market and where we serve clients. I think the, the one distinction is that Lord is a Quebec-based business, and we obviously have operate outside of Quebec.
But I think there's real alignment in terms of what we do and our belief in the importance of developing these skills.
Jennifer Gabriele: And I think even, Bart, they're complementary in certain- Mm-hmm ... respects as well, and you're absolutely right. So there's four books that stem from Lord Communication And the one that we rewrote and re-edited was The Inspirational Leader, 'cause it was 10 years old, and as I mentioned.
But [00:11:00] absolutely, so the services ranged. And for two years we, we, had to do that transition where I was not only taking care of Humance, the, the, the lead practice, but also the Lord Communication transfer of expertise. Not always easy, but- Right ... definitely challenging having to juggle all those different things- Right
at the same time. And what was interesting is I kept on having all these ideas of how we could improve it and things like that, but we were, w- we weren't at that stage yet.
Bart Egnal: Right.
Jennifer Gabriele: And so that was very hard for someone that's an en- entrepreneur- Yeah ... in,
Bart Egnal: in the heart. She wants, she wants to tackle it. So let's talk about the book.
Yeah. And let's... And I know one of the things you did to write the book was this, what I did, which is you went out and did a whole host of interviews. So talk to me about the process. What were you looking to understand about inspirational comm- leadership and communication and, and whom did you speak with in the process of writing the book?
Jennifer Gabriele: So really interesting. First and foremost, we knew we had a hypothesis that a lot of things had to change and evolve, so we wanted to [00:12:00] go and get a concrete, if you want, kind of, approach. So first of all, before even going to meet people, we, we threw out a, a survey on LinkedIn throughout our clients to confirm some hypothesis that we had.
Following that, I went, throughout, some of my clients, executives, even just firsthand, leaders or even managers that, you know, have little experience. I wanted to really get that range of highly experienced and in different sectors. So then I did some interviews, many interviews actually, about 30 interviews, where I asked different questions on what is necessary to be an inspirational leader, and I went a step further and I said, "Who inspired you?"
Bart Egnal: Oh, I like that.
Jennifer Gabriele: in- So you got
Bart Egnal: people telling their stories.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly. And this was a, you know, very insightful for me- Hmm ... where I had
Bart Egnal: ideas. What were the big insights? Like, what did you learn about, like, to your first question, what's necessary? What came out? What were some of the themes?
Jennifer Gabriele: Well, [00:13:00] first of all, I wanna say that there was a lot of nostalgia in certain respects in terms of, well, before it used to be this way.
And as you continue talking to them and they're like, "Finally, finally, it's actually better now." So that was one of the things that I noticed is before they were like, "Well, you know, when I was coming into the workforce, my boss never asked my opinion or, you know, kind of told me what to do." Right. And now we're much more...
For instance, one of the, the lead trends is, is that we are asking for input from- Hmm ... all levels and not just, you know, top-down type of decision-making and things like that. And at, at the beginning we're kind of nostalgic of that. Right. And then we realize that we're actually creating value, right?
Bart Egnal: Right.
So that- That these are the good old days.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly. And, so... And I always tell people, "Let's not forget that the new generations teach their parents things." Right. I never taught anything to my parents when I was growing up- Right ... 'cause I'm not that generation. But nowadays our kids are teaching us-
Bart Egnal: Totally
Jennifer Gabriele: more and more. So you can't go into the workforce thinking that it's gonna be a [00:14:00] top-down- Hmm ... kind of philosophy.
Bart Egnal: So one of the insights then is, you know, maybe things weren't as good as they used to be, and that we're actually, we have higher standards and higher expectations. Yes. What was another one that came out from the-
Jennifer Gabriele: So I would say that would be shared leadership- Okay
which is really insightful. After that, we, we looked at also... I, I can't, I can't deny the fact that COVID did have an impact on how we see leadership and how- In what way,
Bart Egnal: would you say?
Jennifer Gabriele: Well, first of all, the remote part that we all kind of live throughout the- Yes ... the globe, not just, you know, in Canada or things like that, has had an impact on how you show up in terms of presence for your team.
Do you need to be 24/7 present? Do you need to just be there in the, the moments that are important? And during COVID, a lot of managers thought that they needed to be 24/7 available.
Bart Egnal: Right.
Jennifer Gabriele: And now we're shifting from that because we realize that first of all, it's impossible.
Bart Egnal:
Jennifer Gabriele: And second of all, that's not, that's not developing autonomy, that's not developing responsibility, [00:15:00] and not empowering our people.
So that was another interesting conversation because we were coming out of, as we were writing the book, we were coming out of COVID, we were seeing these trends, and we were also seeing how leaders were, how do I engage people that are remote? Or how do I- Right ... engage people, or how do I become inspiring if I don't ever see them at the office?
Bart Egnal: Right. Yeah, I think COVID really fundamentally changed the relationship between the manager, the leader, and the employee.
Jennifer Gabriele: Absolutely.
Bart Egnal: You know, there were so many changes. You know, one of the- another one I s- observed with my clients is if you go back to those nostalgic days, one of the things is people were kind of, whether it was superficial or not, very deferential to senior leadership.
You know, you'd have a town hall, and the executive would say something, and people would, would be very polite even if they asked, or careful if they asked questions. And COVID br- fractured that, you know. I think a lot of people just say what they think. And I, I remember one client in a town hall saying, "You know, we're gonna begin returning to the office two days a week."
And you know, in the past it would've been, [00:16:00] "No, we understand the decision. Help us understand the pa- " Eh, questions came in, you know, "How dare you do this to us?" And you know, "You br- you're breaking your promise." And another person wrote in, "Well, it must be nice because you don't have to commute from the suburbs, and you're making us co- " Like, so the whole tenor of the relationship between management and staff changed.
So, so okay, so you're, you're doing these interviews, and it's really validating that the reason to update the book is leadership and the demands on leadership and the expectations have changed.
Jennifer Gabriele: Definitely. And I would say on top of that, our society has changed. We are in a shortage of labor, in most cases qualified shortage of labor, so people can choose.
Bart Egnal: Right.
Jennifer Gabriele: So
Bart Egnal: we have to create- Yeah, we had, we had the great resignation- Yeah ... right around the time you were... Now, maybe it's tipped the other way now, but okay. So, so major change, and then you sit down and you say, "All right, what are the rules to lead?" Yes. And so the book is structured, and it's a, it's a great book.
I'm, I'm holding it here. It's a great book 'cause I, I, when you look at it, it's, it's almost- It's a, it's a book, [00:17:00] but it's a workbook. It's, it's visually interesting in the way to consume. And so when you look at these rules, there, there are 10, and I know we can't talk about all of them, you know, here.
Jennifer Gabriele: I'm really disappointed.
Bart Egnal: You know what? We don't- we can't give it all away, Jen. You know, we have to leave people wanting more. So we'll put links to the book where you can order it and, and there's a kind of an activity book as well that comes with it. But let's focus on three for people listening. Three rules that they can use to be more inspiring in terms of leadership.
And, and just before we get to the three, I want you to define for people listening, what does it mean to be an inspirational leader?
Jennifer Gabriele: Wow, that's a big question. Do you have 45 minutes to talk about
Bart Egnal: that? Well, you only, you only get 45 minutes for the whole pod, Jen, so I'm gonna force you to be focused.
Because I... And the reason I ask is, you know, I think some- sometimes when I talk with my clients, you know, the podcast is the Inspire Pod, sometimes people say, "Well, you know, I'm not like Martin Luther King," or, "I'm not CEO leading a company here, so [00:18:00] I- I'm not quite sure if I should even think about my communication, you know, as a VP at a bank or as a partner in an accounting firm or even as a s- senior manager in, in a utility as inspirational."
So what does it mean to you to be an inspiring leader?
Jennifer Gabriele: it w- this is a very interesting question because I had a lot of people that were like, "Well, I'm an introvert, and so how can I be inspiring?" And we have this idea that we should all be Barack Obama, for instance, in our communication skills. And to the contrary, I've noticed that even introverts that speak very little can be extremely inspiring in their demeanor, in their presence, in the way they, they move in terms of not...
I'm talking, I'm not talking about the non-verbal, but the courage that they can bring to the table. So for me, inspiring is... One of the first things is walk the talk. Super fundamental. where we... What we're looking for nowadays is in all this movement, transformation, [00:19:00] uncertainty, we're looking at trying to find that guiding light.
It doesn't need to be clear. It doesn't need to be too shining. It just needs to be having a, a clear vision of, okay, this person, I feel like going further with them.
Bart Egnal: Right.
Jennifer Gabriele: Being inspiring is not about solely how you're gonna communicate- Okay ... and, and, you know, say a lot of words or things like that. It's, it's all about also the attitude that you're gonna bring to play, and especially that coherence, I would say.
Bart Egnal: And, and what I'm hearing is the ultimate objective of inspiring is to have people follow you.
Jennifer Gabriele: Yes.
Bart Egnal: And so that's really, if we think back to the question that people are asking of- Am I, should I even be thinking about being inspiring? Really, the answer is yes, that whether you're, you know, a senior manager- Absolutely
a VP or a CEO, you want people to follow you, and probably without authority, right? And, and let's face it, you know, people don't do it even if you think you have the authority to compel people, no one's gonna do anything if they don't believe in you.
Jennifer Gabriele: 100%, and I always [00:20:00] think back of a, a, let's say of a, of a leader that's very directive and that's it's my way or the highway.
They might have the impression that they're being very inspiring and people are following them, but s- truth of the matter is in the back, everyone's talking, everyone's doing their little thing. There's passive-aggressive behaviors that are gonna show up in the workplace, we're gonna resist, all kinds of different things.
The example that you gave before of a town hall where a CEO was like, "This is, this is the lay of the land, and that's it", causes nowadays that we're, we're going to, to challenge. We're, we're made to challenge a little bit more if we wanna be autonomous, if we wanna be independent of thought. Inspiring is also bringing people towards maybe a direction, but being open also to negotiation and not my way- Right or the highway.
Bart Egnal: Okay, so let's, now that we've talked about what it means to be an inspiring leader, let's look at three of the rules. And, the three we- that we talked about you're gonna talk about today are leaders have to create clarity, they have to cultivate excellence, and they have to [00:21:00] demonstrate managerial courage.
So let's start with creating clarity. What does that look like, and how do you practice it?
Jennifer Gabriele: So very, very simple. In every communication that you have, I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning saying, "I hope I'm not gonna be clear," right? Right. And yet-
Bart Egnal: Today I will be deliberately obscuring what I'm saying.
Jennifer Gabriele: Unless you're, you're trying not to answer the question.
Bart Egnal: Right.
Jennifer Gabriele: That happens from time to time, but we don't have a lot of time- Mm-hmm ... to communicate as managers, and yet we, we do spend 60 to 70%, if you're an executive, if you're a manager, with your team communicating in some sort of form, right? So you have to be efficient in your, in your communication because if you're not clear, you're going to have to repeat.
You're gonna have to reformulate. You're going to have to, you know, come back to certain things. So in, in the book what we discovered is the more you've thought of your, what you actually wanna convey, what you actually want them to leave with- Helps. Even if you have three [00:22:00] messages, what's my intention?
Why, why am I communicating this? Right. And it could be for feedback. It could be for an announcement. It could be for a return to the office type of communication. Why are we doing this? So that, that example is a great one where, you know, "Hey, listen, I would like for us to come back to the office. These are the reasons why."
I'm not saying people are gonna be jumping of joy, but at least we have a clarity as to what's- You've given thoughts ahead of time, right ... exactly. And the more you understand how people may react to this, to this news, you're going to actually modulate your, your intervention or your communication, answering those questions.
What people do not like or do not appreciate in communication is when you kind of leave that meeting and going, scratching your head kind of, and I'm actually scratching my head, and saying, "What just happened?"
Bart Egnal: Right. What was the point? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And again, this is where I s- I say there's such [00:23:00] consistency of our thinking between Humphrey Group and Laureate is that our belief is, you know, effectiveness in the moment comes from preparation ahead of time.
Now, I'm wondering when you were doing the book or doing the interviews for the book, was there a story that came, that you heard that really epitomized this importance of clarity from leadership?
Jennifer Gabriele: Absolutely. A few, I would say, 'cause this is a, a really strong, rule. All of them are important, obviously, but this one is, it came up so many times where you've got these...
I've, I have this leader in, in mind that was, you know, sh- very charismatic, and what I meant by charismatic was, you know, everyone got along with that person. But yet when he had to come and defend his team, like when I say defend, I mean, you know, bring a project to the executive level and, you know, say, "I need f- you know, for instance, a budget for this," it always fell flat And what we discovered is that in fact the team had built everything, [00:24:00] but there wasn't that understanding of what the executive needed- Hmm
to push forward, right? So he wasn't being clear. He would talk and, "Well, perhaps we could do this, and maybe..." And, and wasn't clear on the intention that he was, you know, coming to get at that executive level, so was never getting the budget. So it created frustration, and obviously his credibility in, within the team actually diminished.
So this is a concrete example of did you do the work, and w- and I ended up coaching this, this, this person because it became really a problem. And those simple little tweaks that we made in terms of going in with a clear intention, s- leaving them with a clear message at the end and an ask made a huge difference in how they could bring, certain things.
Bart Egnal: So I'd imagine then if people listening are saying, "Well, how do I begin to get clarity?" It really is the preparation ahead of time. Absolutely. Understand what intention you, you have, what kind of a outcome do you wanna have, and then develop the thinking ahead [00:25:00] of time so that in the moment you can provide clarity.
Jennifer Gabriele: And even if it goes sideways- Mm-hmm ... mind you, y- because you've prepared, you can bring it back.
Bart Egnal: Right.
Jennifer Gabriele: This is another issue that we do have with clarity is let's say you're an expert in, you know, an expert in, in a subject, and we bring you down the rabbit hole.
Jennifer Gabriele: If you've prepared before and you've been clear- You
Bart Egnal: can pull it out
Jennifer Gabriele: you can pull it back out.
Bart Egnal: Right. And I love the word clarity I think in contrast to certainty. You know, in this time that we're in now, you can't provide certainty as a leader, but you can provide clarity about direction.
Jennifer Gabriele: Yes. So- And you don't have to have the, all the answers. And I, I repeat this on a daily basis.
This is not what we ask from you to be a leader.
Bart Egnal: Right. But give us some clear- Okay, so that's point one. Let's go to cultivating excellence. What does this mean, and then can you give me a story that epitomizes why this is so important?
Jennifer Gabriele: So two things. First of all, it's about understanding what are your expectations as a leader.
So we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, and one thing that [00:26:00] we've discovered is first and foremost, if you wanna be an inspirational leader, you're not a know-it-all.
Jennifer Gabriele: You're someone that's always open to developing yourself. And in doing that, then you have the authorization to train and to develop other people.
And what I mean by that is having a coaching approach or things like that. But if you're a leader that's not willing to learn to develop-
Jennifer Gabriele: and you're not showing the example that you too are always looking for excellence, how are you supposed to be coaching other people and wanting to, to better themselves, to improve, creating that or fostering an environment that's s- you know, safe for people to, to say, "I don't know how to do this," if you're always on top of everything?
So cultivating e- excellence for me is, is one of the things that I've noticed. And, and an example that comes to mind is I had a leader, senior, very senior leader that was in his 50s, always curious.
Jennifer Gabriele: [00:27:00] Always asking questions to people that just came into the company in terms of like, "How do we do this?
How do we do that?" And I, I kept on looking at him going, "You know how to do this." He's like, "Yeah, but maybe there's another way of doing it."
Bart Egnal: Right.
Jennifer Gabriele: everyone gravitated towards him simply because of that mindset of like, "I don't know anything until I do."
Bart Egnal: So how does c- I hear the curiosity. Tell me how that ties to cultivating excellence.
Jennifer Gabriele: It, because you're, you're setting a standard for yourself-
Bart Egnal: Okay ...
Jennifer Gabriele: you're then l- showing by or leading by example in saying, "I'm your manager," for instance, or, "I'm your leader. I don't know everything, but this is insight or intention that I can share with you, and I wanna push you." And you're going to have those conversations on what are your talents, what are your preferences, how can I help you in those?
Because you've shown, how you can be open to yourself improving.
Bart Egnal: And is it important in conjunction with that to set a [00:28:00] standard, to articulate a standard of what excellence looks like?
Jennifer Gabriele: Absolutely.
Bart Egnal: And, and how, how should people listening think about doing that?
Jennifer Gabriele: So first of all, ask yourself the question, what are your standards?
And then are they realistic for the team? 'Cause that's another issue.
Bart Egnal: Interesting.
Jennifer Gabriele: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Do, did you experience that and do you experience with your clients unrealistic standards set?
Jennifer Gabriele: 100%.
Bart Egnal: How do you know if a standard's unrealistic?
Jennifer Gabriele: So perfectionism, for instance, is, is well-perceived and not well-perceived.
Okay. And it's, it's giving that leeway to make mistakes, and I think that culture of making mistakes, you know, and we often say, "Well, you should celebrate mistakes," and everyone's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But in fact, when you really put that in play in the sense of saying excellence doesn't mean perfect.
Excellent means always trying your best.
Jennifer Gabriele: And where I would say perfectionism is not trying your best is trying to not make mistakes.
Bart Egnal: Right. And so you may avoid doing things.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly.
Bart Egnal: And, [00:29:00] and I definitely think, you know, th- often in business there is a tendency to focus on the outcome rather than the activity.
And so if you're advising a leader on how they can set a standard of excellence but not perfection, like, what's one message they can and should deliver in the organization?
Jennifer Gabriele: Sharing their own mistakes, I would say. creating that vulnerability very quickly. I have so many stories on psychological safety and how you actually set a standard of excellence.
If we had another hour, we would go through it. We'll have to do another podcast. But how this makes such a huge difference in organizations in saying, "Don't hide if you don't know something. Don't hide, you know, if you do not know something and, and you make a mistake." To the contrary, if you set the standard in your organization of saying, "We're all here for the same reasons, and we're gonna do it together"...
I had someone recently come up to me and be like, "Listen, I made a mistake," and there was two ways of me reacting to it. Like, [00:30:00] going back to, "Why did you do this? Blah, blah, blah," or I said, "Okay, how do we fix it?"
Jennifer Gabriele: And just that, the person was so surprised that I didn't go back in the past. Right,
Bart Egnal: that they weren't-
Jennifer Gabriele: And I was already like, "Okay, how do we-" Let's
Bart Egnal: move together.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly. Right. How do we, how, how do we resolve this with the client?
Bart Egnal: I love it. Okay, so let's go to your third point, and I know it maybe, we're, we're out of order here. But managerial courage. What is it? And then give me a story about it.
Jennifer Gabriele: Okay, so managerial courage, is as simple as not only, you know, having, having to have the courage to say certain things and difficult d- conversations and difficult decisions that we have to take, but it's also all about sometimes taking a decision that's going to be for the wellbeing of the, of the team.
And the example that I have in mind is a high-performing person in a team, and this was a leader, that I, I loved working with her, and she had a huge dilemma. So she had a perf- person in her team that was a [00:31:00] superstar in terms of performance but had some behavioral issues, and she addressed them.
They didn't get fixed, and things like that. And she had to take a very difficult decision where upper management was telling her, you know, "Well, this person's performing. Like, we can't get rid of that person because they're performing," and she actually took a stance because she said, "It's not true that I'm going to hurt the rest of my team and the dynamic for one person that's performing.
We'll find another way to perform." And for me, that was a really clear example of an inspiring leader because- We could have argued that the performing person, you know, for the, you know, you look at the bottom line and you're happy. Right. But that's short-term.
Bart Egnal: But we can't afford to lose this person.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly, and that's short-term vision. She had a long-term vision. She said, "If I don't fix this, what is my team gonna look like in 6, 12, 18 months?"
Bart Egnal: Right.
Jennifer Gabriele: And for me, the whole basis of cour- managerial courage is not only thinking [00:32:00] of, you know, how is the team going to respond to this bad news, it's how is this gonna affect the team on the long term, the dynamic?
And so in the book we talk about, yes, how to, you know, to convey certain messages that are difficult, that you don't even sometimes agree with, but it's also if you don't do it, what happens?
Bart Egnal: Right. Yeah, and, and so what I'm hearing in terms of managerial courage, it's, it's taking the decision and it's also being willing to communicate the rationale for it in the face of, as you said, short-term pushback, that you've got to have the, the courage to have those difficult conversations because of your conviction in what's right.
Jennifer Gabriele: Absolutely. And, and nowadays because we are in uncertainty, sometimes we're like, "I'm just gonna put that under the rug." Right. Right? "I, I just don't wanna deal with
Bart Egnal: it." Go along, get along.
Jennifer Gabriele: I... Exactly.
Bart Egnal: Right. Yeah, and so having the courage. And I think it ties to, you know, these other points, right? If you, you begin with the clarity and you begin with, you know, your standard of [00:33:00] excellence, then you can have the courage to really speak up.
I, I often find that, you know, with, with, clients and entrepreneurs, you know, there's s- such reluctance, for example, with an underperformer to do anything about it, right? And you, as you said, you just have to have the courage to know that that's a conversation that you have to have.
Jennifer Gabriele: But again, in an underperformer, for instance, what's the consequences on your performers?
Bart Egnal: Exactly. They see it. And so you may be saving one easy conversat- hard conversation, but you're gonna create a lot more.
Jennifer Gabriele: And you risk to lose your best players. Right. This is something else that we've noticed, is that lack of courage nowadays will lead to people saying, "You know what? I don't... I, I'm not..."
Where it comes back to being inspiring. It comes back to having tho- those, those different ingredients. And don't wonder if a high performer leaves your company and there is something to do with courage. It, it o- often stems back to that, I would say, in certain [00:34:00] respects.
Bart Egnal: So Jen, I know there's 10. We've covered three, but people really should get the book.
What would you say, as we, as we wrap up here, how has writing this book changed your profess- your practice, you know, the work that you're doing with clients? And then also, how has it changed your life?
Jennifer Gabriele: I would say even more attuned with, with leaders as well. It, it opened up great conversations with different leaders.
It brought us different services as well. Like, the book, there's three different trainings that come out of it: executive presence, being a leader in change, I would tell you that's a big part of, of... in the book. So it really ultimately opened another horizon. Um- Right ... when you do order the book, you will get two books.
The second book is really something that we're very, very proud of, which is The Game Plan, which is like a little mini coach on the side that's gonna help you question different things. It's a workbook. Exactly.
Bart Egnal: That's, exactly.
Jennifer Gabriele: So-
Bart Egnal: If you can't hire Jennifer, you can at least have this book as, like, a Jennifer in [00:35:00] your pocket.
Jennifer Gabriele: And w- and, and yes, and, and at the same time, it really describes who I am as a person, in the sense that each chapter you can read and then put it down. You don't have to read the whole book right away. So it really describes a little bit more Isabelle and myself that are, like, more in the nimble and more in the, you know, take one, run with it, try it out- Bite size.
Exactly. Yeah.
Bart Egnal: That's right.
Jennifer Gabriele: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Well, Jen, the most important question is, are you gonna write another book- ... on your own?
Jennifer Gabriele: I'm not going to. Or
Bart Egnal: will you be one and done?
Jennifer Gabriele: I, I, for now, I'll, I'll, I'll leave it to this one. We'll see in a few years. I, I will never say no, but, definitely we'll have to evaluate that in
Bart Egnal: a few years.
Well, we, we are both published authors. We've done it, and no lo- now we can just podcast.
Jennifer Gabriele: Exactly. Yeah. I think that will... that could be a good route.
Bart Egnal: That's right. Well, Jen, thanks for coming on the podcast and talking about The Inspirational Leader. I know, you're leaving everyone listening with some more tangible ways they can be inspiring, so I appreciate you coming on the show.
Jennifer Gabriele: Thank you, Bart, so much.
Bart Egnal: It's been fun. Thanks.
Jennifer Gabriele: [00:36:00] Yes. Bye.
Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire Podcast and the conversation that I had, with our guest. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.
I love the comments, appreciate the reviews, and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It's really how word of mouth has spread the Inspire Podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned. We'll be back in two weeks with another inspiring conversation.
Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and [00:37:00] inspire