Trust is at the heart of every strong professional relationship, but it isn’t built overnight. It takes time, intention, and a willingness to invest in people long before you know what the payoff might be.
In this episode of the Inspire Podcast, Bart speaks with Jordan Kajfasz, Vice President of Intermodal Sales and Marketing at CPKC, about how to intentionally build relationships rooted in trust. Drawing on his career at Maersk, the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority, and CPKC, Jordan shares how putting relationships first helped him build a global network and ultimately create significant opportunities throughout his career.
Jordan explains what it means to earn the right to be trusted, why asking “How can I help?” can be so powerful, and how to strengthen relationships over time. He also explores what it takes to maintain trust once you’ve earned it, especially when things don’t go according to plan.
Finally, Jordan and Bart discuss how relationship building has changed since COVID and in an increasingly digital and AI-driven world. While email, text, and video make communication easier, Jordan argues that nothing replaces genuine human interaction when it comes to building trust.
00:53 Introducing Jordan
02:18 Connection over bike riding
02:43 Bart introduces the idea of intentional effort to build relationships
03:45 Maersk training program
04:12 Building a strong network of colleagues across the world
05:49 What's more important, technical knowledge or relationships?
07:21 Vancouver Port Authority
08:09 Entire career in transportation
08:42 Connecting with the rest of the industry, including competitors
09:13 Stakeholder management
10:11 The gains and losses from moving on from a network
10:30 I don't think you lose connections if you keep watering the plant
11:46 For people starting a career
12:20 CP
12:47 Building relationships at CP
13:24 The business of supply chains and their relationships
14:18 Intermodal transportation
15:19 Bart brings up the idea of "trust"
15:33 Steps for building trust, earning the right to be trusted
16:13 It takes time to develop trust
18:11 Bart asks for an example of building trust before a long-term sale
18:40 Multi-year strategy
20:42 Decisions are made by more than one person
21:26 Investing time without a guarantee
22:19 Long-term perspective is what made his career thrive
24:42 One of the most powerful things, "How can I help?"
25:37 Bart brings it back to the example
25:55 Examples of how he would help prospective clients before a formal deal was made
26:53 Work at filling up the cup
27:13 How can you tell when trust-building is working?
27:36 When they start coming to YOU
27:53 The risk of not delivering when they come to you
28:46 The moment of the big sale
29:52 Bart asks about maintaining trust after the business relationship is established
30:22 The keys to maintaining trust over time
30:30 There will always be problems that arise
31:20 The key is owning it!
31:28 Put your hand up and say, yeah, there's a problem
31:54 Example of travel problems, the most frustrating thing is lack of communication
32:32 If there's something that's not going right, say it!
32:58 Bad news is not like wine
33:17 Bart breaks it down and summarizes it a bit
34:14 What has changed about relationship building post-COVID?
35:00 AI
35:49 The changing communications tech
36:53 Over time, communication has become less and less personal
37:09 Trust needs the personal
38:47 Nothing beats a conversation with someone
41:07 It's always win-win to put time into relationship building
42:25 Thank yous
42:53 Outro
Jordan Kajfasz: Because it's inevitable that you're gonna communicate over text message. It's inevitable that you're gonna be sending emails. But you can't build trust, in my opinion, just by doing that. You build the trust at the start by seeing someone face to face.
Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire.
I'm your host, Bart Egnal, president and CEO of The Humphrey Group. And if you've ever asked yourself how can you develop an authentic leadership presence, or how can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word? Then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work but also in their life
So my guest on today's episode of the Inspire Podcast is Jordan Kajfasz, and Jordan's the Vice President of Intermodal and Sales and Marketing at Canadian Pacific Rail. He is joining me from Toronto. Jordan, welcome to the Inspire Podcast.
Jordan Kajfasz: Thanks, Bart. Great to be here. Really appreciate the invitation.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, great to have you, and I have to say, I have to give justice to your many achievements before we talk that will lead into what we're gonna talk about on this pod. First, I've known CP Rail for many years. Some 15 years ago I had the privilege of working with many executives. Marcel Lazelle is, retired as Head of Sales and Marketing, your areas, a longtime mentor of mine.
And you since joining as VP of Intermodal, you've really been part of leading the revitalization of that. I know you've developed the international business. You've almost led a rebirth and a renaissance of of CP's international intermodal business. You've created, we know, CP has a, a network that stretches into Mexico, that you've led the development of what you call the Mexico Midwestern Express, and there are a whole host of other public projects.
So you've achieved a lot, but I think we have to highlight your real achievement, which is that you consistently are on the podium of our road bike club Saturday group ride sprint. So I don't know what carries more weight. I can tell for me it's the cycling, but you're a man of many accomplishments, and I'm glad to welcome you to the pod.
Jordan Kajfasz: Thanks, Bart, and if I do, if I am on the podium it's one step below you.
Bart Egnal: It's always a close battle ... chapeau to you because It's always a close battle. It, we, so we met riding bikes. We still love riding bikes together. Yeah. And what stood out to me as we got to talking is you're someone who clearly not only has achieved a lot of professional success, but has done it through a really intentional effort to build relationships.
And as we've talked about it, it's clear that you know how to foster these relationship. You've done it globally. You've done it, in North America, and to do it through building authentic trust. And at a time where relationships matter more than ever, where COVID in some ways has set us back in terms of how we foster relationships, I thought w- who better to have on the podcast to talk about what it means to create authentic relations, what it means to, how you go about fostering trust than you.
So maybe I'll just start before we define, how to go about doing that, tell me about how you think about relationships and how, what role they've played in your career success.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah. I started my career 22 years ago, right out of university. I joined a a Danish shipping company called Maersk Line, which at the time, and still to this day, is largely family controlled by the founding family of that company.
And they had a management training program, and it was called the Maersk International Shipping Education. I was fortunate enough to get hired by them and put into that program. There was three of us in Canada, but there was about 330 or so people worldwide that were in this program. And I suppose that was the foundation for the for me the importance of relationships because so much of that program was really about building a strong network of colleagues across the world.
Maersk is a global company. They operate in pretty much every country in the world- Barring the obvious ones. And and you would wake up in the morning and you'd have emails from people all over the world, Asia, Europe, Africa, everywhere in between. And so much of that program, aside from the work aspect of it and the education aspect of it which there was certainly a lot of, but so much of that program was really based on the foundation of of building, building a network that- that you'd be able to use inside the company and for many of us because as you can imagine, over the course of 20 years, the attrition rate of 330 people is pretty high.
But o- over the course of those years, that network actually still to this day is something that I call upon-
On a regular basis, and I will bump into people at conferences that we started in the same program together. I count amongst many of those people. The- ... they're still friends to this day. And to me, that was really the starting point.
Bart Egnal: And can I ask when you went in so you're fresh out of university.
You go, you're accepted into this global train- You're one of only three Canadians in a global cohort.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah
Bart Egnal: it's unique to think, okay the relationships, I'm gonna build these global relationships. Was there a moment when you think back in that first year of the program where it hit you that this, in some ways, the network that you're gonna foster is gonna be as or more important than what you learn technically in the industry?
Jordan Kajfasz: It's interesting. At the start of your career I think you're, you really just want to, at least certainly I did, you always wanna do more. You want more. You wanna grow, and you're really focused on that, and it's honestly, Bart, it's more as you can see it further in the rear view mirror- as you progress your career- ... that appreciation develops more and more. At first, this cohort of 330 colleagues, we would meet every six months in Denmark for two weeks straight, and so you had a lot of interaction. Not everyone at the same time. You would be split up, but you had a ton of interaction with them, and at first it was really just developing friendships.
... And and those friendships turned into, hey, I'm gonna be... I'm gonna travel to this country for my vacation. I'm gonna meet up with those people. And then that turned into business relationships, right- ... along with friendships. And so I can say, as it was really as time went on that you start to a- appreciate that more and have a realization of just how powerful it is to have these strong relationships with people- Right
that have lasted years and years.
Bart Egnal: You weren't aware of it, and so for people listening who might be early in their career, you may not even know that you're building these relationships, but- Yeah ... we'll come back to to how to do it and how to do it authentically. Okay, so let's fast-forward.
So you've joined this. Obviously- Yeah ... your career has not been spent with Maersk, though I know you're now- No. How, what was your next step, and how did relationships- Yeah, so- ... tie into that move?
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah, so I after 10 years at Maersk I, I made the decision to not unlike yourself pack my family up, and we moved to Vancouver.
Great. Great choice. And yeah. And I spent four years out west and two of those years I was working for the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority, which is- ... another organization that I know you're very familiar with.
Bart Egnal: Yes. Yes. I've had Robin Sylvester, the, the former CEO, on the pod,
Jordan Kajfasz: oh, okay.
There you go. Yeah. So I worked there when Ro- when Robin was there, and so for me, w- what my time at the Port Authority and I was my role was trade development manager there. I got to experience a different perspective of my industry. Just for background for me, I've spent my entire career in transportation.
Half of it was on the shipping line side, and let's call it half of it now on, on the rail side with a interlude at the Port of Vancouver. But when the first 10 years of my career was largely, I'll call it looking at it from a perspective of one company, the largest company at the time- in the industry, but from that singular perspective. And and then when I joined the Port Authority- it really opened up my eyes to the rest of the industry. The companies that I would've called competitors and getting to know people there. And, the interesting thing about my role at the Port of Vancouver was I didn't really s- I didn't-- I wasn't selling a particular product or a particular service.
The, the Port Authority is effectively a, a, a landlord, right? They have- ... they have terminal operators to manage the business every day. But what the Port Authority did do was a ton of stakeholder management. ... And my view of stakeholder management there was really with the Port Authority's ultimate customers.
... And and so I got to meet people all over, from all over the world all across North America, Asia- ... Europe, and really broaden my perspective on, on what- ... the industry looked like. And I parlayed that i-into my career at CP or CPKC as we- ... we call it now. A little bit of a mouthful, with the additional two initials, but-
Bart Egnal: Reflects, reflects the growth ... reflects-
Jordan Kajfasz: so you went- Reflects the growth. Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So really interesting. So you spent, as you say, 10 years at Maersk, and you were- Yeah ... you were building all of these relationships, the ones that- Yeah ... started in the training program.
Yeah. And then you move to the port, right? Yeah. And then you move to CP, ultimately CPKC. So you've talked about the importance of relationships. You've talked about the time it takes to build them and how- Yeah ... it's almost like you can't just go too quickly, right? That you have to spend the time So what did you gain, what did you lose when you left that network behind, right?
'Cause you, you- Yeah ... spent, 10 years cultivating political capital, cultivating- Yeah ... trust. Yeah. And you leave it. Yeah. And then you left it again after four years. So- Yeah ... if you reflect what did you gain, what did you lose in those transitions from a relationship standpoint?
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah, y- I actually I don't think you ever really lose anything unless- Right
you s- unless you stop, unless you just stop, watering the plant, right? ... And that's such a key part of it is keeping in touch with people ov- over the course of time. Now the benefit of having developed in, in, certainly my case at Maersk, true friendships with with colleagues that were in the same program as me is it's, it's the old saying, if you're friends with someone, you might not see them for a few years, but you pick up- ... right where you left off when you see them the next time. But y- I'd say the gains actually just grew and grew. Because when I went from from Maersk to the Port Authority, I'd still be able to go out and and go see customers.
Some of my former- ... colleagues were there, or I go see, my former employer, and I had such a strong relationship with them. And it actually it played to, it was to my benefit ultimately. ... And then, at CP, my time at the Port Authority just broadening my perspective of the, the market and the customers that we dealt with it gave me a, a head start.
And- ... and and I guess for those that are listening that are starting your career, you can sometimes question whether you make the right move in the moment or you're in the right role at the moment, but there's always something to gain from it. And, and- ... I can say this, I think I was far more effective at the start of my career at CP, ... because I spent those two years at the Port of Vancouver- ... getting to know- ... the entire sort of market and universe of customers that I'd be dealing with. And I think I was- ... more effective than had I just gone from Maersk into CP a- as an example.
Gave you
Bart Egnal: a whole s-
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah ...
Bart Egnal: other set of relationships and a richer- Yeah ... perspective on the industry.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So you get to CP. Yeah. Now, you were ambitious, and they say to you- Yeah ... "Let's see what you can do. We're not really-" Yeah. I guess it was, "We're not doing a lot in intermodal internationally- yeah
and make something happen."
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: So- Yeah ... big challenge. Yeah. Tell me how you very intentionally put the work into fostering a relationship. Now for, for people listening, describe the nature of these relationships. Because it's not like selling a widget, right? These are like multi-year- Yeah
decisions. So just describe the nature of a commercial relationship and what, what challenge you faced coming in with kind of a, a zero base to start on.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah. Yeah yeah, these are, w- the, the, the product we sell is really, it's a service, right? We sell a service. And my, my, my whole career has been that way.
I've never worked for a, a manufacturer of a product or a good. I've always worked for service providers. And in my world, in the transportation space, it's a supply chain. And a supply chain- ... is exactly that. It's a chain of connections of different organizations, stakeholders, customer service providers that all need to work together to de- to, to get a good from Origin all the way to the shelf at the store.
And so even the service that that we provide it relies on multiple stakeholders- ... multiple suppliers, and they all need-- They all-- We all need to operate together and, and- ... work together to be able to provide the service that we ultimately sell.
Bart Egnal: And intermodal is, is- Yeah
is basically your area. That's something that goes- Yeah ... in a container, right? Is that the kind of- Yeah ... definition of intermodal?
Jordan Kajfasz: Ex... In, in, in intermodal shipping is is the movement of goods inside a shipping container that can go from within modes of transportation, hence intermodal. So- Hence the intermodal container
in the international, in, in the international intermodal space, it goes from truck to a ship to a train to a truck. And so that container just gets picked on and off on each of those modes as it makes its journey across, and that's hence the, the-- that's the intermodal space. And for those listening you'll see shipping containers on the highways all the time, and and they'll have all sorts of different names on the side of them, and those are all different shipping lines in the world that are m- that are moving goods on behalf of their customers from somewhere in the world to the end user here in, in Toronto or anywhere else in North America.
Bart Egnal: And you... Okay. So that's a great description of what you're doing, and you're trying to convince these huge companies overseas, in many case. I know you did a lot of business development in Asia over a multi-year period to- Yeah ... choose you, right? To partner- Yeah ... with you.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah. E-ex-exactly. Okay.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. So trust.
So I know of trust when we talked, when we prepped for this call. You were saying that trust is at the heart of a decision, right? They have to trust- Absolutely ... you, trust what the company that you represent will do. And you laid out a few steps for building trust with customers, but also internally.
And the first one you said to me was you have to earn the right to be trusted. You have to put work in ahead of time. So describe what this means, and then let's maybe you can take us into an example of a customer where, or a customer- ... you hope to win and how you went about doing that.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah. So it is very much trust is a, it in my opinion, is at the core of being successful in selling- ... service because the person that's buying it has to trust that you, as the ambassador of your company, are going to be able to deliver what you promise. For someone to trust another person it takes time to develop that.
You, you- I think it's safe to say that you don't just trust someone with your- livelihood- ... just after the first meeting. And I say that to people here that I work with, is at the end of the day, we have to remember that, what, that container, what's inside that container is someone's livelihood.
It's someone's products that they wanna get to market. There's money tied up in those goods and they're trusting us to deliver the service of getting it from where it is today to where it needs to be tomorrow. And so trust is critical, and- ... and especially in, in in this type of industry where you have long-term agreements that involve hundreds of millions, billions of dollars of spend it takes a lot of trust for someone to say, "Yeah, I w- I wanna pick you."
I wanna pick what you do." And you'll always hear, yeah, service is important, price is important, consistency Always important. But if I just walk up to you and say, "Hey, I've got great service, I'm super consistent- ... and I've got a competitive price," you're gonna say, "That's great, but prove it."
Like, how do I bu- ... how can I believe you, right? How, how- ... what can you do to make me believe you? And so developing trust- ... before you even get to the point where you say, "Okay, let's do business together," to me is so important, ... in, in my business life. But that extends, it, it extends just as much inward as it does outward, developing trust with the people that you work with your internal stakeholders, external stakeholders. It's, to me it's it's foundational.
Bart Egnal: And one of the things that really caught my attention when we were talking about how you go about building trust is you described the time that you invest.
You were telling about a, a customer that you- Yeah ... it was a potential customer. They weren't- Yeah ... a customer. You would want- That's right ... and it was gonna be many years before they could become a customer.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: And even before you start talking to them, you invest a huge amount of time to understand them.
Yeah. Describe a bit about that kind of- Yeah ... first step of understanding the oppor- even just the opportunity to build trust before you start the work. What does that look like? Yeah.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah. It's really developing for me a, a multi-year strategy, right? Creating a plan that's gonna carry us through the next year, two, three years, five years.
And, that's a pretty extensive exercise. But I... luckily I work with some really intelligent people and creative people that when we did that the first time around we were we were able to draw up a pretty ambitious plan, and some of that plan didn't work out, and some of that plan did.
And that's how it goes. But it was, for us it was a, it was an important first step because y- yeah, you set budgets for the year and you monitor quarterly result- monthly results, quarterly results, annual results, so that's all, and that's all important stuff. But it, you- do you see- ... you can't lose sight of what you're gonna have to do two years from now, or three years- or f- or four or five and where you ultimately wanna end up. And so that was really the start of it. And, you know- ... that that, that first experience that I had in understanding the importance of trust and developing a relationship and building upon it, it started from that point. And with- the cus- the customer that, that that you and I talked about, it, this was a two and a half year long- ... journey of meeting with multiple people across that organization- ... in Canada, in the United States, overseas, m- multiple times per year to to make sure that number one They knew who I am.
That, that they're comfortable with me, that we've built a relationship where they know that they can count on me for information, for insights that if there's an opportunity for, for me to help them, that I would do that and they can count on me for that. And really set the stage for when the time came when a decision had to be made.
And n- no decision is really ev- ever truly made by just one person. Yeah. There, there- ... might be one person that signs the paper, but before- ... that ink goes on the page There's a whole bunch of people that give- ... input, that have influence, right? And, and- ... people talk about decision-makers versus influencers.
All are very important but you wanna make sure that, th- for me, I always wanted to make sure that I had the, the influencers out there at least knew who I was and could say- ... "Yeah, I I believe what they have to say." And and so yeah, it's it was in this case, it was it was two and a half years of- of fostering relationships with people. And, really you have to be prepared to invest that time.
Bart Egnal: A- and, and- wi- without an a- without a payoff, right? The- Ex- exactly ... there's no guarantee. So you have to, be there and, put this time in without any, reciprocal payment, if you will, huh?
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah. And- To be... ... and I, like for me I was prepared to do that. I acknowledge- ... that, y- I will... i'll come out of a, a meeting with someone, a face-to-face meeting, a phone conversation with someone, and I know that I won't have anything to really show for it, right?
L- at the end of it. But I also- for two and a
Bart Egnal: half years, it to- you didn't have anything- And
Jordan Kajfasz: for, yeah ...
Bart Egnal: till,
Jordan Kajfasz: like- Yeah ...
Bart Egnal: plus a day,
Jordan Kajfasz: right? Yeah. But I also knew that every time I did that, the, the bond got stronger and stronger.
And that was something that I knew would pay dividends in the long run.
... And one of the, I think the things in my career that's served me well is really having a, a long-term perspective on things. And I know that we always want i- there's always pressure on me and my team to perform today and get things done today, and that's certainly a really important part of our
Bart Egnal: business- You're telling me that there's a-
any business ... there's pressure in the publicly traded company to generate business on the quarter? Jordan, this is shocking. Shocking news.
Jordan Kajfasz: Shocking, right? But I've also found that it's critically important- ... to be able to also say what, again, what, what's gonna happen in the long run? What what do we need to prepare for today- ... so that we're ready in a few years' time? And always think about what's next and what- ... what the next step would be, what the outcome could look like. And, ... and I and so I was prepared to invest that time and knowing that or feeling fairly confident that we could be successful.
Al- also feeling fairly confident that if I didn't do that- There's a good chance that we wouldn't be successful.
And so y- you have to think about it both ways.
...
Jordan Kajfasz: It
Bart Egnal: l- if you- And I'm sure you're reading the, you're reading the signs as you go, and you're seeing, even though, it's not a signature- Yeah
you're seeing greater authenticity and greater trust. I mean- Yeah ... if we think about this, this first step we talked about, right? Earning the right to be trusted, doing your research, having the plan. It strikes me the second, what you're describing now, once you have this plan, once you have this approach, is being present, right?
Being personal- Yeah ... without a, without an expectation. You have to make that investment.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Now for pe- and that, what I like that you're describing is, of course, we're talking about the customer relationship, but I think it really applies to any relationship in your career, right? Yeah. If you're thinking about the people in the long term who are gonna, make a difference in your career, org- if there's an organization you want to advance in or join- Yeah
I imagine it's, you could apply this to the, to that practice- For sure ... as well. Is that right?
Jordan Kajfasz: I think so. I think this is a, I'd say it's a fundamental fundamental thing, whether it's in sales or in- ... again, inside your company or as you wanna build your career.
So important, like al- always, I think one of the, one of the, one of the most powerful things you can ask someone if you wanna build a relationship is, "How can I help?" "What can I do to help?" What do you need from me? And and, I think of at the start of my career when when you wanna really advance and grow and do more the way to do that is to say, "How can I help?
What more can I do?" If you wanna develop a a... If there's an organization that you wanna join or to s- the next job that you want, if you have that inroad with someone in that organization, certainly the, the, the being there and saying, "Hey, w- what can I do to help you?
Is there anything I can do?" "Is, is there is there something that I can do to show that y- I'm I'm the real deal," right? That that- ... that that you need me. I think that's-
Bart Egnal: So a- These are super important ... as you were building that customer relationship you've described, did you ask that question?
And if so, what were the kinds of things that people said? Because w- it wasn't like they were gonna sign the contract, six months in- ... 12 months in. So did you ask- Yeah ... and then what responses did you get?
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah. I, it was always it always came up, right? And and some- and and quite often, Bart, the help that I could provide w- was, maybe some insight into what's going on- in, in transportation in Canada or my opinion on an event or something like that. It was- ... it was... I'd say it was w- maybe intangible, but- Okay ... it was im- it was important to them and- ... and it didn't cost me anything, right? And and so that kinda feels like a win-win.
And the more- Yeah ... you do that, the, the more that sort of the gauge of trust keeps rising- ... and rising, right? And that's really what it comes down to. I like that. I think of it like a, I think of it like a, it's, y- you've got young kids. I've got a, a- Yeah ... a nine-year-old going on 10, and in his school last year they talked about, making sure that you filled up someone's cup, right?
That you could- ... you could... And filling up their cup, making them happy, making them feel good. It's the same thing with trust, right? Like- ... there's gonna be times where you're gonna be filling the cup and, hey, things happen. No one is perfect, right? Things are gonna happen where maybe the cup goes down, right?
The, the- ... the level of the cup goes down. But you can always work to fill it up and and that- ... was always, that, that was, the- I like it ... the best m- metaphor that I could give on that.
Bart Egnal: So as you're filling up the trust cup, as you're working towards it- Yeah ... what is a sign, like, 'cause where you say, "All right.
We're getting somewhere here," yeah. Where the, you're reading the tea leaves or I guess- Yeah ... you're looking at the trust cup, and you can say, "We might have a shot," if you think back to that huge customer- Yeah ... it took you two and a half years. Yeah. What is a sign that you're, you might be getting close?
Jordan Kajfasz: I think for me it's when they start coming to you. And and that's, to me, that was always a, a, a good sign, right? That's okay, they believe us. They're... This is a true expression of interest now when they start coming to you. And- ... and then it's even more critical because then you- y- w- when you're coming to them, that's one thing, but when they start coming to you, y- that's when it, you... that's when you know you, number one, have a great opportunity, but also a great- ... risk 'cause if you don't- okay, so
Bart Egnal: what's the risk?
Jordan Kajfasz: If you don't deliver. If you don't, if you if they come for, and ask for help or whatever it may be and- and you don't deliver then that's, th- that's t- then- ... that's a, a risk. It's a rev- it's a, it, it's, it makes them question, right? The g- then does the- ... the level of the cup go down, right? And, and- ... you have to rebuild. So I think to me that was always a, a good sign though when, when unprompted when, you go from
Bart Egnal: chasing them- ... it wasn't me initiating
Jordan Kajfasz: it ... to them, them chasing you. Yeah and yeah, may or maybe starting differently. Or coming to you, like- it wasn't me initiating the conversation. It was them.
Bart Egnal: Okay. Yeah. Okay. So then when we fast-forward two and a half years- Yeah
And I love this story of this- Yeah ... huge deal you won.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: And do you r- do you remember the moment when they said, "We're picking you"? And what they said about the reason why
Jordan Kajfasz: I do remember the moment when they said that that they're gonna pick us. It was this incredible sense of satisfaction- that, it got to the point where the top person in their company, the key decision-maker, was the one who said, "Yeah, we're, we wanna go with you." That told me that all that work of building, a, a relationships across an organization paid off, right? That it got to the- Yeah
top of the house. It was just this, a, a immense feeling of pride. ... Relief. Relief. Yeah. Relief as well.
Bart Egnal: The two and a half
Jordan Kajfasz: years were worth it. Yeah, relief. And and as is anything in the world, it's the it's the case of "Oh, gr- great, we did it." "Okay, now we gotta, now we gotta do it."
Bart Egnal: Exactly.
Jordan Kajfasz: And and so-
Bart Egnal: So that, that's maybe a good segue to all right, so you've built trust, you've earned the right to have this incredible, confidence placed in you. Now, the day after or maybe the hour after, we gotta deliver. How do you think about maintaining trust-
After you build this connection? Because- Yeah ... look, we know no matter how good a working relationship is, in a global business of that scale, there are gonna be ups and downs. So- Yeah ... what would you say you're, in your experience, the keys are to maintaining trust through- Yeah
A long period of time?
Jordan Kajfasz: Nothing ever runs perfectly all the time. We- ... we may s- we may strive for perfection, but achieving perfection is I dare say nearly impossible. And so yeah, things will go bump in the night in, in any relationship in, in any business relationship.
Something's gonna happen that, that doesn't go as planned and certainly in an industry like transportation, there's any number of things that can go wrong on any given day that may be- ... completely out of your control. I just think, I think about, last night we had these massive lightning storms and- Right
And rainstorms and I was trying to get back home from Texas and you're delayed for an hour and, ... and you're... and there's part of you that goes, "I just wanna get home and go, get into my bed and go to sleep," and you get frustrated. And then there's a part of you that says, there's, "What can I do about it?"
But the key is- Is in my opinion is owning it. It's when that type of thing happens, and certainly in my world, for me, the important thing is to put your hand up and say, "Yeah, we, there's a problem here, and this is what we're going to do about it." And sometimes that means asking our customers to help us, ... along with us helping them. But having that dialogue and communication is so important. And again I equate it to, in, in your own individual life. If, if- ... something goes wrong when you're traveling, the mo- In my opinion, the most frustrating thing is a lack of communication- and and a lack of a plan. And and when you don't know what's going on, it just gets... The, that frustration level just gets higher and higher. And if you don't have a plan that's given to you to say, "This is what- ... this is what we're gonna do," or, "This is what we can do about it," even if you don't like the plan, at least okay, this is what I got in my hand, right?
Something's being done ... I can maybe get something better, but at least I- ... at least I'm starting here. ... And so for, for me that's one of the things that, that I like to live by is to say- ... yeah if there's something that's go- that's not going right, v-
Bart Egnal: say it.
Jordan Kajfasz: And then
Bart Egnal: we can
Jordan Kajfasz: work on a solution together, and I think that's important. Now, no one wants to get bad news, but I- ... I think it's better to at least know about it than it is to pretend like it doesn't exist. And one of, ... o- a person I worked with had a great saying, and it's probably not his.
He probably... For sure he heard it from someone else. But, bad news isn't like wine. It doesn't get better with age. A- and he- I've never heard that one. Maybe it is his. Yeah he used to say that, and it's so true. It doesn't get better with age, so you might as well just get it out there and, Yeah, open that bottle
Bart Egnal: now
Jordan Kajfasz: And... Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. So really to maintain that trust, it's about, first I th- what I'm also hearing from you is let's set the expectations that perfection is our goal, but likely unattainable. There will be bumps. Yeah. Yeah. And then second, really being proactive, taking ownership when things go wrong, communicating a plan, and that's how you're gonna navigate these complex multi-year relationships.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Jordan you really laid out the incredible amount of work that goes into a relationship. What is it they say? How did I become an overnight success? It took me, you know- ... years and years to do it, right? I think that kind of feel like- Yeah, exactly. ... how do you land a, how do you land a close, right?
Look behind. I wonder if we just take a ste- and I really appreciate, I think people listening will know. Like I want- I wonder if we could just take a step back as we bring this conversation to a close. The world has changed a lot since COVID. COVID took us away from each other for a while.
Yeah. And I think it led to some fundamental lasting changes in how we build relationships. What are you seeing in your world, either internally- Yeah ... or with customers and what are your thoughts for people in the world who about relationship, in the business world- Yeah ... about relationship building imperatives today?
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah it's a it's a good point. We've had two big, changes in in, in how I think we communicate with each other, right? I... Certainly- ... the pandemic was a, a huge shock to that. Shifting to screen conversations instead of impersonal conversations. Shifting- to to not seeing each other in person for months and for s- in some cases, years at a time. And then we've also now seen the, the advent of artificial intelligence, and y- to the- ... to the point where today you don't actually know if you're talking to a real human being, right?
Like-
Bart Egnal: I'm real. I'm, I can guarantee you- Yeah ... I'm real. I, I- Though maybe my AI would say that.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you don't... if you're- Hopefully you're
Bart Egnal: real too.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah, I am. Trust me, I am. 'Cause if I was AI, there'd be- That's right. ... it'd be perfection. But you don't know if you're on the phone with someone- or chatting- True ... with someone if... Is that a real person? Is that a human being? And you hear more and more stories about companies that are- ... shifting their customer service to AI customer service. So you think you're talking to a person, but you're actually not. So we've seen those, I think, two big transformations.
And, look, communication's changed over the course of history. It was letters that used to be sent across the ocean. And then it turned into telegraphs, and, and- ... then we have the f- and then the phone. And if I think about my career, communication was, when I first started, even...
This isn't... i'm sure for some people this is a long time ago, but for me, it doesn't feel that long ago. In 2004, it was in-person meetings and and telephone conversations.
Bart Egnal: Yes.
Jordan Kajfasz: And, I remember
Bart Egnal: having a desktop phone when I was at, when I started. And then, and then- Yeah ... I got my first BlackBerry a few...
I'm like- No,
Jordan Kajfasz: that was- ... "Whoa, this is
Bart Egnal: wild"
Jordan Kajfasz: You made it. Wild. You made it.
Bart Egnal: You made it when you- I
Jordan Kajfasz: had
Bart Egnal: the belt holster. I was so cool.
Jordan Kajfasz: You m- you made it when you got a BlackBerry. That's, that was the sign. That's right. But then, it went from in-person meetings and phone calls, and maybe teleconference calls on a phone.
And then, email became so much more important. It became... Email started becoming the, the way that people wanted to communicate with each other, and then it turned into text messaging, and then it's Teams pop-ups and things like that. And so- ... it over... It feels like in my life, over the course of time, communication has become less and less personal.
And and so I think it's important to have this, the, to develop and foster trust and relationships with people because it's inevitable that you're gonna communicate over text message. It's inevitable that you're gonna be sending emails, but you can't build trust, in my opinion, just by doing that.
Y- you build the trust at the start by seeing someone face to face. Honestly, even if it's on screen, yeah, it's not the same, still pretty good. ... On the phone I, I think is important. In person is I- always ideal in my world, but- Yes ... but that's how you start to build it. And then you can leverage all that work that you put into building a relationship or trust when you're sending a text message to someone or an email or- Right
a Teams pop-up because you've spent that time doing it beforehand.
Bart Egnal: But I- You fi- you fill back that trust cup.
Jordan Kajfasz: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I just think it's so important now that, I can't imagine what it's like someone starting out their career now and, with all this i- amazing technology that we have the effort that's gonna have to go in to building up- that trust in an environment where we rely so much on technology for our communications. And it's become, largely depersonalized. And, and- ... I think the ... we all experience it every day, I'm sure. But, the way the message is communicated in an email, the way a message is communicated in a text message, and the way a message is communicated when you're having a conversation with someone live- always feels different. Even though the message may be the same- ... the content may be the same- ... but how it's received, how it's perceived Is different across all those modes. And and I think, n- nothing beats a, a conversation with someone.
Bart Egnal: You're so right. And, look, your-- I love your description of this kind of proliferation of digital means of communication, which are seductively easy, right?
Because they're You don't have to get on the plane. You don't have to deal with the delay coming back from Texas, right? And even-- why even go on a video call when you can just send a text? But, I, Long ago, I read this book w- called Free, about the emergence of essentially marginal cost of things being zero with the rise of the internet.
And there was a sentence in there about the music industry that said, because Napster was coming, there was... basically music was free. Today with Spotify, it's almost free. Which is that-- And yet concerts were never more expensive, and that, that holds to today because new economies of abundance create new economies of scarcity.
And I think, you know- Yeah ... what you've described is when we live in a world where you don't even know if a digital communication's with a real person, what commodity becomes that much more precious but true human interaction where trust is actually built? And when you look at the success that you've had, and I think it's great advice for anyone listening, whether you're starting your career or you're looking to, build these multi-year global relationships, there's no shortcut to building trust.
It happens through human interaction. It happens through intention, and you're just gonna have to put the work in. And the greater the opportunity, the greater the work. And, you know- Yep ... what you really outlined today, Jordan, is just the intention, effort, and generosity of thought and effort you have to put in to earn that, that true trust.
So- Yep ... I think it's a com- it's a tremendous story for people listening, and I'm certainly inspired to, to do even more in-person meetings. And and so I appreciate you sharing your journey and your wisdom with us today.
Jordan Kajfasz: Absolutely, Bart. It's my pleasure, and thanks for having me.
And, if I could maybe just close with one thing. Yeah. Please. And maybe we'll... Sometimes you start at the end, and sometimes you end at the start. And both- ... are probably helpful. But if I end with the start, if you think about the network of people that that you will meet over the course of your career as you're starting out your career, again, maybe you don't understand the true impact of it.
But there is... I- I've never had an investment in time in building a relationship someone that-- with someone that didn't ultimately yield something positive for them- ... and for me. And and I, don't, don't-- I don't think anyone should ever be shy to to try to do that because I think it's so important and it just-- Even with all the technology out there, at, at the end of the day- For now, we're still dealing with human beings and, and I think people still and hopefully will forever want to deal with other people- ... rather than a machine. So I think it's, I think it's so important, and it's it- whether it's today in, in 2026 or it was 200 years ago, people deal with people. And and, and- you have to put the time in. You can't just expect to get something out of it with- without putting some, some time and effort into developing trust and a relationship with someone. I hope that's not lost upon people and and- Wise words. ... That they can they can build successful careers and businesses and relationships, throughout the course of their life by, by keeping that in mind.
Bart Egnal: Jordan, it really sums up why no matter how much has changed, some things remain the same. And obviously the success that you've had in your life is a testament to that. And I, on a personal note, I've really enjoyed getting to know you over the last couple of years on and off the bike.
And, Likewise ... you certainly practice what you preach. So- Likewise. Yeah ... look forward-- Thank you for this great conversation and to many more that will follow.
Jordan Kajfasz: Absolutely, Bart. Thank you very much and we'll see you out on the road.
Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire Podcast and the conversation that I had with our guest. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.
I love the comments, appreciate the reviews, and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It's really how word of mouth has spread the Inspire Podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned. We'll be back in two weeks with another inspiring conversation.
Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire