Only about 1 in 5 Canadian employees are engaged at work. So what’s causing so many people to check out, and how much of a difference can leadership really make?
In this episode, Bart speaks with Wahaj Awad, Consultant with Humance and The Humphrey Group, about the everyday experiences that shape how people feel at work: a lack of support, limited growth opportunities, and a growing sense of isolation.
Wahaj explores how leaders can make a meaningful difference by leading with intention, adopting a coaching mindset, and adapting their leadership style to the needs of their people. Through practical examples and leadership frameworks, Wahaj shows how small shifts in everyday leadership can help employees feel more supported, connected, and empowered to succeed.
Bart and Wahaj also discuss why high performers don’t automatically become effective leaders, why delegating work isn’t the same as giving real ownership, and why leadership is something that has to be practised, not perfected.
It’s a practical conversation about the small, everyday choices that can shape whether people simply get through work, or actually feel engaged in it.
Additional Resources: Who's Got the Monkey?, a helpful resource on the difference between delegating tasks and delegating ownership. Watch the video here.
00:15 Show intro
00:53 Welcoming Wahaj
01:55 Bart discusses Humance and how they met
04:12 Bart asks: Why doesn't work bring more joy and fulfillment?
05:40 Wahaj on the broad topic of work satisfaction
05:52 In Canada, only 21% of people are engaged at work
06:37 The study of how to make work better
07:16 3 major trends in job satisfaction:
07:28 People feel unsupported
08:02 Some performance issues are actually environment problems
08:56 70% of employee engagement can be tied to the manager
09:24 2: People feel stuck and the great detachment
11:17 3: People feel lonely
12:15 Bart asks how remote work fits into this
13:36 It's not proximity, but rather intentional moments of connection
14:24 Bart asks: How can people get beyond disengagement?
15:05 A leader can't fix everything for people, but...
15:33 Bart reviews the stats on the importance of leadership
16:33 Thinking about leaders who have really affected you
17:17 "They believed in me"
17:53 Intention: What do you actually think your job is as a leader?
18:50 Leadership is a practice
19:19 Leaders often forget about that development piece
19:25 Firefighting vs. leading
20:18 High performers are promoted to leadership without the training
20:41 Individual contributor vs. leader
21:55 What does a leader's mindset look like in practice?
23:21 Success needs to start happening through other people
23:52 Resist the urge to always be the one with the answer
28:15 Employees need to feel ownership
30:08 Adaptability as a leader
30:24 There isn't one perfect leadership style for every situation
32:22 Autonomy is good when a person is ready for it...
35:08 Bart muses on the "obvious" nature of some of this
36:35 Pick one small thing and work at it...
39:01 Where can people find out more about this?
40:11 Thank-yous
Wahaj Awad: I hear this all the time from leaders. "Ah, I, I can't focus on leading. I'm putting out fires." And we start to think that's what leadership is. We focus on the managing side of it, not the leading aspect.
Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal, president and CEO of The Humphrey Group.
And if you've ever asked yourself, "How can you develop an authentic leadership presence?" Or, "How can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word?" Then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life
So my guest on today's episode of the Inspire Podcast is Wahaj Awad. Who joins me from Calgary, is a consultant. Now, you're... Like, this is a double barrel consultant, Wahaj, because not only are you a consultant with Humance The Humphrey Group's parent company, but you're also a consultant with The Humphrey Group.
So in both auspices, welcome to the Inspire Podcast.
Wahaj Awad: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
Bart Egnal: It's a pleasure having you. And I know you have... You've got two degrees that are very relevant for what we're gonna talk about today. You have a BA in psychology, and then you have a master's in let me see if I'm getting this right organizational psychology with a specialist in leadership development.
Is that right?
Wahaj Awad: It's so- Joker ... so it's a master's in industrial organizational psychology with a specialization in training and development through the lens of social justice. It's a mouthful. I don't blame you.
Bart Egnal: It's a mouthful, but, all incredible credentials, it, it deserves full credit.
Wahaj for those listening I feel I should tell the story of how I came to bask in your greatness and why ultimately we have brought you onto this, into the Humphrey Group, and now I've invited you on the Inspire podcast. And so for those listening I think everyone knows, if you've been following the show for a while, that, been about a year, the Humphrey Group, the firm that my mom founded, that I've, I basically spent my career at, was acquired by Humance.
And Humance is has its origins in Quebec. It has its origins in industrial psychology a- and assessment. It's very well-regarded in Quebec, and their ambition is to grow beyond. And so they welcomed me and the Humphrey Group into the broader business. And, a year in, it's been awesome.
We're building great things, and part of it what's awesome is that we get to do things with people who we didn't know about, but who are just great for our clients. And so in January after joining, we had a huge, all-company meeting. It's very exciting for us at the Humphrey Group to meet everyone, and this dynamic person was co-facilitating.
And I thought, "Wow, her energy's incredible. I just feel so inspired and excited to be here and connected to Humance," and it was Wahaj. And I'm like, "We've got to get you working with our clients." And so fast-forward, you've gone through our consultant onboarding, our rigorous consultant onboarding program.
You just co-led a kickoff of a huge new client program, and we couldn't be happier to have you in the Humphrey Group as well. So that's the backstory and it's great to have you in the Humphrey Group.
Wahaj Awad: What a hype man, Bart. Can I just have you follow me around everywhere and introduce me to people?
Bart Egnal: Maybe that should be, like, a new Inspire service offering, right? Yeah. We'll be your hype person.
Wahaj Awad: Yeah. I feel like people would pay for that, 100%. I think so. I'll be your first customer.
Bart Egnal: I love it. Done. Though, maybe we can... We have to find some external customers too.
Wahaj Awad: You always gotta get, you gotta get the man in the middle.
I'll be your wing man and just, Done, get the hype going.
Bart Egnal: I love it. I love it. So Wahaj, when we start, we sat down to talk about what we would cover on the podcast, we came back to this topic that I think has really become so relevant in the last five, six years. I really think- Since COVID, and that is why work doesn't bring the fulfillment and the joy that it should.
I grew up, just speaking for myself, I started my career in 2001, and it was really in an era in time, where people said, "Your work should be so meaningful. It should be a huge part of your life." And I will say I count myself very lucky to say that it is for me.
But I have noticed increasingly in the discourse of the corporate world and the work world in general, that work is not doing it for people in the same way. Some people are, but many others report, lower feelings of fulfillment, enjoyment. Dis- we see disengagement scores are at all-time highs. So people are feeling that they're, they would like to maybe break up with their work, and I know this intersects with, what you have studied, the work that you do with clients with your humans hat, and you've got some solutions.
So I want to have you on the pod to talk about why work sucks, why it doesn't have to suck, and the role that leadership plays in I don't think we can say unsucking work. I don't know if that's a technical term, but no. I think
Wahaj Awad: we can add it to the dictionary.
Bart Egnal: We could add it. We'll coin it here.
But r- i- in all seriousness, how to create true engagement through the lens of leadership. So maybe I'll just start by giving you a blank canvas for sharing why in your, in the work that you do with clients, what in terms of disengagement or disenchantment and some of the root causes of it.
Wahaj Awad: Absolutely. I, and you're on the money there, Bart. I saw a a study published in Gallup. It was the, the state of the global workplace. And it was published back in, in April of this year, and I'll speak to Canada, but they found that only 21% of people were engaged at work.
Bart Egnal: Wow.
Wahaj Awad: Yeah. That's, so that's one in five. Not a lot. So you're not wrong there. There is definitely-
Bart Egnal: So basically for each of us, there's eight more people now, because the two of us are engaged, there are eight people out there who are not.
Wahaj Awad: Exactly, yeah. That's how the math works. So yeah and that's definitely disheartening to see, especially because, one of the things that brought me into, industrial organizational psychology, I remember in my first year when I took the intro class, I had no idea what it was at the time, but my professor said, we spend a majority of our adult lives at work.
So industrial organizational psychology is the practice that essentially looks at what, how to make work better for people. So that's what I've spent my- ... career dedicated to. And I'd say, doing the, the, the culture work that I've done, the leadership development programs, and all of the conversations I've had with, you know, many clients across industries, so this is not an industry- specific thing. It's not a, if you're a, a small organization, big organization, the same goes for everyone. There's really three major things that I see happening.
Bart Egnal: Like three things that you see that are causing this level of disengagement?
Wahaj Awad: Absolutely.
Bart Egnal: Okay. Take us into them. What are they?
Wahaj Awad: It's I would say people feel unsupported.
Bart Egnal: And what does that mean, unsupported?
Wahaj Awad: Sometimes pe- when people, "Oh, I don't feel supported," they think it's this dramatic thing, and it really isn't. It's, it can look really simple. Okay. It can look like- Not knowing what's expected of you. Maybe not getting useful feedback or constructive feedback to help you improve, or even just not feeling comfortable enough to ask for help.
It's these little things. And it's interesting because sometimes, you see these things and they get labeled a performance issue. This person- ... is having a performance issue. But we have to consider that it's partly actually an environment issue. So what is it in the environment that's not creating these conditions for people to thrive?
And I think that's a big part of support. So it's not just individual support, but it's- ... do you have the systems in place so that you can actually succeed in your work?
Bart Egnal: So that lack of support may be driven by a poor leader, or an ineffective leader perhaps is a better characterization. But much more often, and that w- that's makes sense given the broad swath, as you say, of low engagement cuts across industries and companies, it's a failure of an organization to provide support leadership and systems.
Wahaj Awad: Absolutely. And I mentioned Gallup before. They have shown that it's as much as 70%- ... of the difference in how engaged teams are can be tied to a person's manager. So it is a big chunk, and where I think the failure of the organization comes in is not supporting leaders so that they can support- Right
their people as well.
Bart Egnal: Okay, so this is the first reason why engagement is so low: lack of support. What's the second?
Wahaj Awad: The second I would say is- People feel stuck- ... where they are.
Bart Egnal: Like, stuck career-wise?
Wahaj Awad: Yeah. So this was actually referred to as the great detachment. Okay. So what we're seeing is that people feel increasingly disconnected from their jobs.
But it doesn't mean that they're leaving. So people are staying, they're feeling disconnected, and about 30% of workers say that they feel stuck in their current role. And what stuck means is basically there's just no movement.
And that doesn't necessarily mean promotion, so growth doesn't always have to mean promotion or upward mobility.
It can mean learning new things in your trade. It could be stretch opportunities having more ownership over your tasks maybe a chance to use your strengths in a different way. So all of these things mean movement. So people don't necessarily need to be climbing all the time, but they do want to feel like they're actually moving forward somewhere.
So that's what I mean when I say- ... people feeling stuck.
Bart Egnal: And, we hear now in the economy that we're in a l- what is it, low hire, no fire economy, right? Where- Yep ... people ar- aren't getting new positions, but they're also not, being let go en masse, and so that probably contributes to that feeling of stuck, and people are like, "I just gotta stay in my job to maintain my work," but then they're lacking the personal development and growth that they're seeking.
Wahaj Awad: Absolutely, yeah. They don't really have the option to, to leave- ... and, you'll stay, but you're staying-
...
Wahaj Awad: In your same spot.
Bart Egnal: Now, what I'm hearing, I know we're gonna come to this, the solution part, but I'm hearing stuck doesn't require a promotion or a la- or a move elsewhere f- to address, so okay.
We'll come back to that. Let's go the third reason why disengagement is so high.
Wahaj Awad: So the third reason is people are feeling lonely. They're isolated, they're feeling siloed.
And-
Bart Egnal: 'Cause in, in Gallup, don't they have a question, hasn't there long been the question- ... do you have a best friend at work?
Wahaj Awad: I think, yes.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, that's been one of the most fundamental predictors of engagement in the workforce.
Wahaj Awad: It's true, and I've even seen there are some companies when they hire someone-
...
Wahaj Awad: They'll actually ask them if they recommend anybody. So a, what people do is you you hire a set.
So you hire someone and they're- Wow ... and that's been shown to actually lead to greater retention of those- ... new hires.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. Do you think that the rise, I know it's declining, but there's no question- ... that remote work has increased dramatically since COVID initially with a massive spike, and still they are at higher rates- than pre-COVID. Has that accentuated that loneliness and isolation?
Wahaj Awad: I love that you ask that part, because it's a common misconception. So the part of it that's, I would say yes, is because we lost a little bit of those informal connections. The water cooler chats, that sort of thing.
But it actually has been shown that it doesn't necessarily matter- ... whether you work remotely or you're sitting beside somebody in an office, because y- you can feel surrounded by people and still not feel particularly known connected, or even clear on how your work fits into the bigger picture.
So it's not necessarily just about being around people. But it needs to be intentionally created connection. So I don't know if there was something that happened during COVID, but even the people that are, you know, returning to work now, or there's a lot of companies that are I don't wanna say forced, but, gently- Yeah, they, they-
encouraging people to come back to work ... put returned office mandates
Bart Egnal: in.
Wahaj Awad: Yeah. Gently or
Bart Egnal: not.
Wahaj Awad: It, there, there's a difference. It's not the same as it was before. And often what we're seeing is, people are coming into the office, but they're in back-to-back meetings all day. They're not actually connecting with one another.
They're there, sure. Maybe they're next to people, they're around people, but they're not actually connecting. So it doesn't really matter if you're not creating those intentional moments- ... of connection.
Bart Egnal: Okay, so Wahaj, you- you've diagnosed for us why disengagement is so high. It's this lack of support, this kind of f- getting stuck and this feeling of isolation and, some mix of, this Molotov cocktail of of unhappiness leads to disengagement.
So let's talk about what to do about it, because, I'm thinking about this from the point of view of people who are stuck. Let's say you have someone who's... they- they've grown in their career. They're, like a director, in finance, in a, mining company.
They hit a point and they're like, "Look, I can't go to another industry. This is the industry I know. The industry, there's not lateral positions." So am I just have to resign myself to this feeling of disengagement indefinitely? I'm assuming the answer is no.
Wahaj Awad: Definitely not. Yeah.
Definitely not. And this is partly why I do what I do. I, I- most of my work is in leadership development, and that's because I really think that leaders have such a big impact on this. And I wanna be clear that as a leader, you can't and shouldn't be expected to fix every part of- someone's work experience. You can't single-handedly change things like compensation, workload, organizational structure. But they can have enormous influence- ... over how someone experiences those things day to day. So I would say if you're a leader listening to this gear up.
Bart Egnal: Love it. Yeah, and I think, look, I've got just a few stats for people listening as to why- leadership matters so much. Business units with higher employee engagement see 20... This is from Zoom. 23% higher profitability, 18% higher sales performance, 14% higher productivity. They experience 59% lower turnover, and really the manager, if you're like, "This is not my job," it is. The manager accounts for 70% of the variance in your, in team employee engagement.
So it is the manager's ability to influence this, and there are meaningful business performance results. So I know what you're gonna talk about really does sound intangible, but it has a tangible, concrete effect, and you as a leader and as a manager can impact it.
Wahaj Awad: Absolutely. And I'll anchor it in this, in the leadership development programs that, that I run, I have this activity- that I love to do, and it ties into sort of the, the first fundamental that I'll talk about. Okay. So I have this activity that I like to do in some of my leadership programs and workshops, and it ties into the first fundamental that I'm going to talk about. Okay. But what I do is they take out a Post-It note, and I ask them to write down the name of a leader in their life, whether it's from their professional life or even personal, that has made a big impact on them.
And y- we take these Post-It notes. They'll put them on the wall, and then I go through and pick out some names and ask them, "Okay, what was it that- ... made this person a great leader for you? What was it that made the biggest impact?" And most of the time, what I hear is something to the effect of, "They believed in me," or- "they saw something in me that I didn't see in myself." And that really, I find that most people get into leadership- ... with that desire. At least the people I work with in leadership development programs, the people that- ... are looking to improve themselves. That's really a, a big thing for them, the people part of it.
So I would say it, it ties into the first fundamental that I'll talk about, which is i- intention.
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Wahaj Awad: And what I mean by intention is what do you actually think your job is as a leader?
What are you there for?
Bart Egnal: So this is an interesting starting point, because I agree with you. Everyone-- I would say the preponderance of people in management and leadership positions I've worked with in my, 20...
Oh my God, I'm getting old here. 25-year career. Are in leadership for exactly the reasons you describe. Their goal is to get the most out of their people. They've thought, I've been in this room. We could do more together. We could harness the power of people." So how do we square the individually compelling intentions with the 20% engagement that exists in organizations?
H- how do you reconcile those two?
Wahaj Awad: W- So for me, it comes down to one thing. People feel like leadership is either something you naturally have or you don't.
And that's not the case. Leadership is a practice. You try something, you pay attention to the impact it has, you learn and you adjust.
But-
Bart Egnal: So it's a skill, which is what we believe- Exactly ... at the Humphrey Group, and the practice of the skill requires intention, skill development, and growth.
Wahaj Awad: Exactly. But what people miss is that development piece.
Oftentimes at work, y- we're rushing to, to get to the next thing.
We're f- so focused on putting out fires. I hear this all the time from leaders. "Oh, I, I can't focus on leading, I'm putting out fires." And we start to think that's what leadership is. We focus on the managing side of it, not the leading aspect. And when I start a lot of my programs with this because we're, getting to the intention piece and the self-awareness and, I'll hear pushback from people being like, "Oh, we j- oh, this is one more thing to add to my list."
Just, "Oh, I'm not" ... "as if I'm not busy enough already." Exactly. But it doesn't take a lot. It really doesn't. There are small moments that make a big difference, and, when you think about the, the long term, this is another thing, it's a mindset shift. Usually how people get into leadership from what I've seen is, they're really good at their job, and so boom, okay you're promoted, you're a leader now.
And what they don't prepare you for is the shift in the lens that you need- ... for that. So as an individual contributor, the question usually is, "How is my performance?"
Something to that effect. When you move into leadership, the question needs to become, "Am I enabling The performance from the people around me
Bart Egnal: And so this is really when you talk about the beginning of creating engagement, of creating a work or a team where people can feel thrive, that they're thriving and supported, as you say, or unstuck.
This is the mo- the f- your first point is begin with this intention. Your intention should be creating an environment where your people can succeed and thrive. Is that right?
Wahaj Awad: Absolutely. So it's realizing that is your role. Okay. You are not meant to have all the answers. You're not meant to be, the smartest person in the room, and the intention shouldn't be to make yourself, indispensable.
All of those things that maybe is a focus when you're an individual contributor or, you know, an expert in a field. It's... Success needs to start happening through other people when you become a leader. Okay.
Bart Egnal: So let's take, let's say you have that mindset.
I want you to give me an example of a client you've worked with who begins her week with that mindset.
What does it actually look like in practice? Because I think people listening will say, "All right, that sounds great," but what does that actually mean practically?
Wahaj Awad: So practically it means that you look at your, let's say you're looking at your calendar. And you, oh, okay, I've got, this project to do.
I've got this to do. What you shift from that is seeing- Let me check in on that person. Let me see how the team is doing. You start off with checking in with your team. You don't look at the next day. You're looking at the coming weeks. You're planning ahead. You're not thinking in that short term, you're looking longer term.
And you're looking at, okay, you're asking yourself things like, "Does my team need what- "does my team have what they need to succeed today?" "Tomorrow? What are the things I can do to help with that?" "What are their concerns?" It's thinking in these ways versus- ... thinking, oh, This is
Bart Egnal: my task.
Wahaj Awad: Yes. Yeah. Exactly.
Bart Egnal: So what I'm getting is it's a shift from objective oriented, like the business objectives to th- wh- which you aim to achieve using your people, to thinking about the people- Exactly ... as your business goal.
Wahaj Awad: That's exactly it. Yeah. You're, there's almost a, a middleman in the achievement of-
Bart Egnal: Right
Wahaj Awad: targets, success. And really, again, like I'll say it again, but success needs to start happening through other people.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So let's say you... So that's step one. You begin with this intentional shift, and I think that's a really good way of describing it. Now, what's the second step?
Wahaj Awad: So actually, the, the second and the third one tie into that intention.
Okay. So okay, if you have, you've set this intention and you're like, "Okay, part of my job, big part of my job is helping other people succeed."
The second thing you have to do, and it's probably the hardest thing, is resisting the urge to always be the one with the answer.
And you do that through adopting a coaching mindset.
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Wahaj Awad: And I talked about this earlier. A lot of leaders were promoted because they were good at their job. They're good at solving problems. So when someone comes to them with a problem, usually the natural instinct is to solve it, and that works in the short term. But if I'm answering every question for you, I may be getting work done faster today.
That's what I always hear. They're like, "Oh, it's just a quick thing. I can get it done easier if I just do it myself." But I'm also teaching you to come back to me tomorrow. So it's not... Again, if we're talking leadership is a forward focus, it's a long-term look, that's not going to help you. And this is where most of leaders struggle.
And when I say using a coaching mindset, it doesn't mean you never give any advice. It doesn't mean, every time someone asks you a question, you have to answer it with a question or- ... be cryptic in that way. But it means getting curious before getting helpful. And y- this could look like simple things.
Somebody comes to you with an issue, asking them, "Okay, what are you seeing? What have you considered?"
"
Wahaj Awad: What would you recommend?" "What support do you need from me?"
Bart Egnal: And so you're really training them. What I'm hearing is you are engaging them. You are balancing the need to, deliver on the short term with this longer goal of, fostering talent and incur- and building them up.
And so it is a d- And as you said, the longer term impact, it's that old metaphor of, if you want the, someone to eat, give them a fish. If you want them to eat forever, teach them to fish, right? It's that- Exactly ... that balance of that, that development. And so it's beginning. I like it, with beginning with curiosity, and encouraging them, and helping them develop their critical thinking.
Wahaj Awad: Exactly. You're not assuming that they're starting with a blank canvas.
You n- oftentimes people have what they need. They just need... Sometimes it's a, maybe a lack of confidence, or it's Knowing that they have ownership.
And that
Bart Egnal: gets- And it is tempting for people who are promoted because of their brilliance and expertise to say, "This is what you should do.
This is the answer."
Wahaj Awad: And that's what they've been doing before- ... they became leaders. It's why they got
Bart Egnal: the promotion.
Wahaj Awad: Exactly. So i- it's completely natural and totally understandable, which is why it's so- ... difficult. And you could even see this in in personal life. If you're- sometimes with kids. Your kids come and they're, "Oh," "What do you do?" And we're seeing a lot of this, with gentle parenting and everything. You need to let them try things out, and, again, back to that activity that we do, I don't think I've ever heard someone say that, "Oh, this person was a great leader because, they always told me what to do."
Bart Egnal: They- It just doesn't ... they just gave me the answer every time, and I just did- I never had to think ...
Wahaj Awad: what I
Bart Egnal: was told. Doesn't happen. Thank goodness I never had to use my brain.
Wahaj Awad: Ah, amazing. I could just- ... rot when I was at work.
Bart Egnal: And I think back to your three reasons w- for disengagement.
When I look at feeling... all three of them, when you begin to adopt this coaching mindset, in some way, shape, or form are addressed, right? You feel supported because someone is, your leader is looking to you. You, even if you're not changing roles, you're gonna be developed, right? You're- Exactly
your chief's challenging you to grow. And your, the isolation is reduced because you're working collaboratively on something.
Wahaj Awad: Exactly. You're seeing, and you're getting that leeway slowly where, maybe instead of the leader solving a problem for you, they go to, X, Y, Z people, try to solve it.
They recommend that you do that. It increases your connection further within, the organization. So i- it really does tackle- ... all three. And, one of the other things too with this is making sure that they have that ownership- ... over something. And that comes up with when we talk about delegation.
Is, I always tie the two together. I think they, they go so well because that's another big one that people struggle with- ... is delegating. They're like, "Oh, I have so much, to do, but I can't give it to anybody." And- 'Cause I can't trust
Bart Egnal: them, they
Wahaj Awad: won't do it right. I...
Exactly. And usually don't do it right means they're not going to do it your way.
Bart Egnal: Exactly.
Wahaj Awad: And that's hard for people.
Bart Egnal: It is hard, and I think what, and back to your point around mindset and intention, it's really, you need to adopt it, not the lens of not just what do I need done today, but how do I develop the team that can do this for the long term?
Wahaj Awad: Bingo. Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So that's your second point. C- adopt a, we could call it coaching/delegating mindset.
Wahaj Awad: One of the issues that I see with people delegating is they'll often try and delegate a task. So they're, "Oh, okay, this task will help with their development, so I'm gonna give it to them." But they don't end up giving the person ownership over the task. Okay. And what that means is essentially you haven't given them the opportunity to either do it their way or to e- have accountability over the results of that. So if every decision still has to come back through you, you haven't really delegated ownership.
You've just distributed tasks. And when I talk about this, people are like, "Okay, but y- not everybody can do everything. So how do I know, who to give what?" "And how much ownership or direction?" Because, how much ownership, direction, or support that you give someone shouldn't always be the same.
And that ties into the third piece. Okay. Which I'm gonna put under the umbrella of adaptability as a leader.
Bart Egnal: So tell me what you mean by that.
Wahaj Awad: So it's recognizing that adaptability is, works in so many ways, but what I specifically mean is that there isn't one perfect leadership style that works- for every person in every situation. I've heard leaders come and, "Oh, I found out about authentic leadership," or, "I found out about, Radical candor. "... transformational leadership." Radical candor. They t- all talk about all these things and they're like, "This is, I've based my entire leadership around this."
And that's all well and great. These are fantastic theories and, methods and approaches, but you're missing the adaptability piece. You're painting, the entire room with one stroke. I don't know how the metaphor goes, but-
...
Wahaj Awad: You can't do that.
Bart Egnal: So you really have to think about having different tools in terms of the approach you take in leadership, both in terms of what you're saying if I'm hearing correctly, both in terms of how you communicate, but even with each, with the leader- the individuals you're trying to lead and reach, some are ready for more, some are ready for less.
Some, when you look at the three, pillars of disengagement, lack of sup- some need more support. Some need a new career opportunity. Some need more connection. So feeling, understanding what the audience needs is also part of that adaptability. Is that right?
Wahaj Awad: 100%. And we talk about this at the Humphrey Group, being audience-centric.
So that's exactly what it is. And imagine, okay, if you have the same assignment and you give it to two people, one of them has done it 10 times and is super confident. The other person has never done it before. They're shaky. And if you lead both of those people in exactly the same way, let's say you, give both of them a ton of support.
Then the experienced person might feel pretty micromanaged by that, whereas the newer person, maybe it's good. If you, okay, scale back the support, the newer person could feel abandoned by that, whereas, the experienced person maybe feels better with it. So really autonomy can feel empowering when someone's ready for it.
But it's overwhelming when they're not. So this is what I mean by that adaptability, that audience centric piece. And it isn't about labeling someone experienced or inexperienced. The same person- ... can need a lot of direction in one area and almost none in another.
So it's constantly keeping a pulse on- ... on your people, and that, again, doesn't need to be this big undertaking. It's really- ... just a-
Bart Egnal: It's this conscious intention that you're talking about where instead of, again, going back to the calendar Monday morning, instead of looking at these are the five things I have to get done, it's thinking about the people on your team and what they need to thrive.
And as you're saying here- Exactly ... it's gonna be different for people depending on their personality, depending on their life situation, depending on their experience. And so you need to invest the conscious time. If you're gonna create engagement, if you're gonna have them thrive, you have to invest the time in learning and thinking about how to reach each of them differently.
Wahaj Awad: Exactly. Exactly. And again, it doesn't need to take a lot of time. We have leaders that have 50 people on their team, more than that, and again, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to have a one-hour chat with each person every week. But it's those pulse checks. It's having, a, a lot of people...
it's interesting. I hear that, they don't talk about their development goals or what they want- ... unless it's in their yearly review.
And there are some people that don't even have those yearly reviews. Which always shocks me to find out. It shouldn't be after all this time, but it does.
Yeah. And it's really just being fair. You can find out- ... from a, a quick conversation, a, a Teams message, just asking about people is enough.
Bart Egnal: Yeah.
Wahaj Awad: And asking them what they want.
Bart Egnal: And so opening that channel to understand their level of connection and what they need-
...
Bart Egnal: Will just give you an additional piece of evidence of how you can practice leadership with them and create engagement.
Wahaj Awad: Exactly. So really the question becomes, what does this person need?
For this task, maybe in this moment. And if anyone's interested, this is the concept of situational leadership. I love-
...
Wahaj Awad: Teaching about that. And I
Bart Egnal: know- And we can put some, some links ... I threw another leadership term, but we'll put some links to it in the show notes as well- it's great
to some, some materials. Wahaj, in some ways, like, listening to you describe the cure for disengagement I'm left with kind of two seemingly contradictory conclusions. The first is, wow, this stuff is obvious. Like- ... leaders should think about the practice of leadership, but not just tasks.
Leaders should think about h- empowering, coaching, and delegating. Leaders should ju- be situational for the right... A- and yet at the same time, I think, it's not very simple to do, right?It demands a level of intention and conscious effort in a time when I know leaders, you have wider spans of control, greater pressures on them.
So what would be your message to people listening who say what that participant said to you in one of your programs, "This feels like a lot on top of an already full plate"?
Wahaj Awad: It's starting small. So what I would encourage is, today, if you're listening, what I want you to do today, pick one person that you lead, not the entire team, just one person, and ask yourself, "What might they need more of from me right now?"
And maybe it's something as simple as more clarity. Maybe it's more leeway, more space, autonomy. Maybe it's a little bit more feedback, more challenge, or just a little bit more connection. And find that thing, and just pick one. One small action. We end all of our leadership programs with this. You pick one small thing and you work on it, whether that's, let's say you want to work on your coaching mindset.
In your next conversation, ask someone a question before you- ... respond with a solution. It's small little things, because these things build up over time. And the way that leadership development is successful is through practice. So you don't have to overhaul the way that you lead- ... overnight.
You start with one person, one situation, and just one intentional adjustment, because over time you're going to look back and you're going to be an, basically a new person, because those things- ... stack up over time.
Bart Egnal: I'm reminded listening to you of the story, and I forget the name of the story.
I'm sure, parents listening have also read it to their kids, about the boy walking along the beach with his, I think his mom, and the tide has gone out. And all along the beach as far as the eye can see are starfish that have been left behind that are going to die- ... if they don't get back in the water.
And, thousands of them. The boy picks up a starfish, chucks it back, deep, and, keeps going, chucks a few more, and the parent says "There's so many." "It makes no difference if you throw five back in." And he said, and he points to the one he throws and he says, "It made a difference to that one."
Oh, that's beautiful. And I feel like that's what you're talking about here, right? Start with one person. You will make a difference for them. You, maybe you'll in, you'll turn one person from disengaged to engaged, and over time you'll build that muscle of leadership and, your team will be better for it.
Wahaj Awad: That's exactly it. And hey, maybe your name is going to be on the Post-It note that leaders talk about- ... in my workshops. That's what I- I love it ... I tell people, it's-
Bart Egnal: Maybe your, someone will write your name
Wahaj Awad: years later. Someone will write your name. It doesn't take
Bart Egnal: much. I love it. Haje, this has been incredibly valuable.
I think people are gonna want to get into your workshops now and- They're fun ... maybe... Yeah maybe get the Post-It. I love that goal of have someone write your name on the Post-It note. Thanks for joining me. I know we'll link to Situational Leadership.
Anything else that you would recommend? People are excited about what they've heard today, want to deepen their knowledge, deepen their learning. Anything that people should read, people should pick up, and also how they can connect with you?
Wahaj Awad: Another concept I love sharing is who's got the monkey.
Bart Egnal: Ooh.
Wahaj Awad: That's a really good theory. There's an original paper about it. I think it was from the New York Times or Harvard Business Review, one of them. It's a really old one. It's from the '80s. But I n- I heard the chuckle. Oh. I'm so sorry. I was like, "It's really old."
Bart Egnal: That's back in the day. Back when I was born.
Wahaj Awad: My bad. But no, it's a really interesting... You can find YouTube videos that explain it a little bit better. Yeah. I find the, the original piece is a little difficult to walk through. But it's a really great process that shows you the difference between delegating a task- ... and delegating ownership.
I find a lot of people struggle with that, but it's a really great concept. I love it. And it has a little fun fun talk about monkeys. I love likening things back. We'll put
Bart Egnal: the link to the YouTube video 'cause- Yeah. ... let's face it, no one's gonna read the n- paper from the '80s that long ago.
Wahaj Awad: It's... I'm so sorry.
Bart Egnal: Haj, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. This has been a pleasure, and I can see why people love being in your workshops. So-
Wahaj Awad: Yeah ...
Bart Egnal: thanks again.
Wahaj Awad: Thank you, Bart. It was a pleasure being here.
Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire Podcast and the conversation that I had with our guest. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.
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Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire