The Secret to Creating True Connection with Barry Moline
In this episode, Bart Egnal speaks with executive, author, and leadership expert Barry Moline about what it takes to create authentic human connection in an increasingly disconnected world.
Drawing on decades of leadership experience, including mediating high-stakes conflicts and leading organizations through crisis, Barry shares the lessons that inspired his book Connect: How to Quickly Collaborate for Success in Business and Life. From rebuilding trust as a young CEO to helping groups find common ground during conflict, Barry explains why connection is the foundation of influence, collaboration, and effective leadership.
Bart and Barry explore practical ways leaders can foster stronger relationships at work, including “connection before content,” intentional conversations, and helping teams connect to a shared purpose. They also discuss why authentic connection matters more than ever in the age of AI, remote work, and digital overload.
Whether you lead a team or simply want stronger relationships in your work and life, this episode offers actionable insights on how anyone can create true connection.
Learn more at BarryMoline.com
Show Notes
00:35 Show intro
01:13 Introducing Barry
01:52 Bart introduces the idea of “connection”
02:24 Barry’s story of how he got to this topic
03:33 Early CEO mistakes
03:47 You’re either with me or against me
04:43 Different culture than he was used to
05:42 Key advice from senior staff: build relationships!
08:16 2017 origin story for why he wrote the book
09:02 Working on a utility solution as an outside consultant
10:06 Does anybody get along anywhere?
11:11 Why doesn’t someone write a book about collaboration?
12:23 Isn’t it the CEO’s job to bring everyone together?
13:01 It’s not the facilitator that is important
13:57 Case study: California’s referendum on gay marriage
14:53 Understanding why people voted “no”
16:05 Door-to-door conversations and outreach
19:03 Bart reflects on the campaign
20:17 What is “connection” and what does it mean for leaders?
20:40 Enter connection lightly
21:19 Using icebreakers
22:17 Specific questions that help create connection
23:14 Avoid “How are you?” completely and go to an icebreaker
23:56 How to move beyond to deeper connections
24:09 Where to find a list of workplace-appropriate icebreakers
24:42 Understanding purpose
25:01 Example of a plumber and their importance to society
25:34 Tell employees what they do is important and why
26:27 Remind people why their work is important
27:01 Managers need to be respectful and caring
27:17 Find out what people really want to do in life
27:48 Example of an aspiring filmmaker and communications leader
29:52 Bart reflects on the example
31:10 Bart plays devil’s advocate
31:41 As an employee, how do you protect yourself while opening up about your interests?
33:44 Both sides of the conversation need to be judicious
34:18 Story and example of an engineer
36:47 What is the state of connection today?
37:04 Connection has gotten worse
37:24 Connection before content
37:51 You have to be intentional about connection
38:31 10 out of 10 times it will work
38:56 It will take 3 months of consistent effort
39:22 Example of hurricane response
41:40 Bart summarizes the importance of the topic
42:27 Where can people go to find more?
43:00 Thank-yous
43:13 Outro
Show Transcript
Barry Moline: I call it connection before content. We, we need to connect first before we talk about actual work, and we just don't spend as much time doing that. We get right down- Mm-hmm ... to business, and it doesn't happen naturally. So as a result of that, you have to be intentional about it. You have to say, "Okay, I know icebreakers might seem stupid."
I personally, as a CEO, I hated them, hated them. Until I realized, oh, wow, I... We are actually connecting here. We are actually developing some relationships. So, h, I guess, I guess they do serve a purpose.
Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal, president and CEO of the Humphrey Group.
And if you've ever asked yourself, "How can you develop an authentic leadership presence?" Or, "How can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word?" Well, then this podcast is for you. [00:01:00] And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life.
So my guest on today's episode of the Inspire Podcast is Barry Molin. And Barry is an author, he is a leadership professional. He has written a book called Connect. , the subtitle is How to Quickly Collaborate for Success in Business and Life. And he joins me today from Sacramento to talk about connection and, , you know, how to actually create connection in the world where that exact thing is in short supply.
Barry, welcome to the Inspire Podcast.
Barry Moline: Bart, it's great to be with you. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, likewise. And I think, it's very timely that I'm having you on to talk about connection because in this world, you know, where AI is exploding, we're being swallowed by the internet. I was actually [00:02:00] listening to a podcast on the weekend, even though I'm happily married, about how people are just turning away from dating apps, increasing nbers.
That connection w- is what people are really after, and yet it's harder and harder in some ways to, to create. So I, I wanna have you on. I think people listening are gonna be fascinated by your journey and how and why to create connection. So before we dive in, l- like, you weren't always a connection expert.
Tell, tell me about your career. Tell me about what led you to write on this topic.
Barry Moline: Well, just diving right toward the topic, I, I became a, a CEO in my late 30s. A- a- actually it was a little bit of a surprise to me. I applied for a stretch job, and I don't know, at the time I felt like I kind of fooled them.
"Yeah, I can do this." I mean, there were a series of, of ways that I had, , presented myself to the, to this group, the Florida Municipal Electric Association, in advance, [00:03:00] and, and they just needed my particular skills at that time, even though they knew I wasn't a CEO. But they thought that they could sort of coach me up into the job.
But I came in from the outside, which is one way to get into executive leadership. And when I, when I got the job, I, I really didn't know what I was doing. Hmm. I, I didn't know... I, I had managed a group of people, but I wasn't trained well as a manager, and I was, you know, sort of feeling my way, trying to figure things out.
And the, the first thing that I did was the first big mistake. I had a, a staff meeting of our group, which was about, mm, 18 people, and in a nutshell, in introducing myself, I said something to the effect of, of, "Y- you know, we need to work together." And here's the, here's the worst [00:04:00] part. Okay. I said, "If you're not with me, you're against me."
Bart Egnal: Oh, wow.
Barry Moline: I didn't, I didn't laugh or smile at the time. Right. I said it seriously. All right. Yeah. And yeah, you're getting the idea, because how would you feel if your boss just said that? , you'd s- you'd sort of, like, straighten up your back and say, "Okay, well, I'm not sure I'm with him."
Bart Egnal: Right. This may not be a long relationship here.
Barry Moline: Yeah. And after the meeting, my general counsel, who was, you know, a, a good 10, 15 years older-
Bart Egnal: Mm-hmm ...
Barry Moline: wiser, , pulled me aside. We, we had lunch together, and he said, "Look, you're, , you know, you're coming in from the outside." I was in Florida at the time. Hmm. And it was, it was kind of rural Florida, so it was, it was like the South- Mm-hmm
of the US, and you know, people in the South are a certain way. They have... People in different regions are a certain way. And [00:05:00] in, in his case, he was saying, you know, "Relationships are important here," and that's what he conveyed to me. And he said, "You've got to develop relationships with people. You can't just command that they will respect you.
You have t- you have to, you have to get to know them, you have to talk to them, and if you order them around, they will just turn their back on you and go in the opposite direction."
Bart Egnal: Hmm.
Barry Moline: So it, it was really wise advice. And, and he could have done the opposite thing. He could have led the charge to get me fired.
Right. But instead, he, he chose to help me along and help bring the organization together. Hmm. After... And I was replacing a CEO that was ineffective. Hmm. So I was sort of brought in as the one who was supposed to be effective. And here you were.
Bart Egnal: Here was the replacement.
Barry Moline: Yeah, exactly.
Bart Egnal: Well, you were very lucky to, to have him m- and have him give you that advice.
Barry Moline: Yeah. And with that advice, I, I turned it around. I g- I got [00:06:00] on track. I immediately set up and had lunch or a separate meeting with everybody in the organization, and it just depended on, on timing. And of course, it was only 18 people, so it was doable. I, I, you know, I did it over the period of the next six weeks or so.
Bart Egnal: Mm-hmm.
Barry Moline: And, and I got to know folks. I tried to understand what their perspective was on the organization. I listened a lot. And then, and then I got folks back together- Hmm ... and said, "I listened to y'all, and I don't know exactly the, the way forward. There's, there's a lot of, you know, potholes that I heard about and a lot of issues and concerns.
I've made a list, and we're just gonna, we're gonna work on them. We're gonna work on all these things, and, and let's just get into it. Let's, let's-" Whether,
Bart Egnal: whether you're with me or against me.
Barry Moline: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I didn't... Yeah, exactly.
Bart Egnal: I love that story. You know, you, you were fortunate to have someone who talked to you about the power of [00:07:00] connection.
And I know that, you know, obviously the, the story is a happy ending because you spent almost 30 years- You know, heading up trade asso- two trade associations, both in Florida and in California. And, , I know the world you operate in, where you were really dealing with, as you said, a s- relatively small staff, but you were in a very influence-based role where you had to, you know, work with all these associations and utilities, right?
And kind of be... It's a non-authoritative leadership role. And- Yeah ... I imagine influence- Yeah ... is critical.
Barry Moline: Right. Exactly. Well, it was 18 direct staff, but at a trade association you have members- Right ... and all the staff of their members that we're constantly dealing with. It was actually several thousand people- Right.
Hmm ... that I came into contact with to all try to keep moving in our direction, in the same direction. And I used that advice-
Bart Egnal: Hmm ...
Barry Moline: beyond that, that core of 18, that nucleus, and every concentric circle of folks, what was important that [00:08:00] I took away for, , for, , for me and our staff ultimately, , we all learned that lesson together, to get to know people first before we, we try to do business.
Bart Egnal: And so as you put those lessons in practice, I, I wanna fast-forward to the, the event in 2017, the invitation you got that ultimately led you to write your book. Because, you know, here you were working as a, as a CEO, you were in business. You probably never thought of being an author. And then, and then tell us about what happened.
Who called you and why? What did they need your help with?
Barry Moline: Well, I was working with one of our members in South Florida, it was the city of Vero Beach, and they were... The community was fighting with, with various people, you know, in the community about an electric utility issue. Kind of a, a boring issue we'll say, but, but nevertheless, they were...
, you know, c- communities do engage on- Sure ... things like the dog [00:09:00] park or the sewage- Mm-hmm ... treatment plant or the garbage pickup or whatever it might be. And, and that's good. It's good for communities to have those conversations. And in this case, they were arguing about their electric utility service and, and I was the electric utility expert.
I was from more than 50 miles away, you know, the consultant from out of town, so they brought me in to facilitate a solution here. Mm-hmm. And so I was working with them, and I worked with them very closely for, for a long time. And after a particularly difficult meeting, I went out to a bar and was having a beer.
It was actually with a reporter that was covering- Hmm ... this event, , or the, covering the whole issue, and he thought that I was a, a trusted, , source, and we got to know each other better and, and ultimately, , became friends. And, and since we both have scattered to the wind, we, we still have remained friends.[00:10:00]
Hmm. And so we were out at, at the bar and over a, a few beers- We were, I don't know, complaining. "Does anybody get along anywhere?" Is, is the, the question that, that we were talking about. So we picked up our phones and started googling communities that solved problems, , with collaboration. Hmm. And we had no idea.
We were just trying to imagine what the world would be like if folks actually got along in this community, if they, if they collaborated. And immediately we found five or six examples, and we're like, "Whoa." And we looked at them and we said, "Oh look at this, this community in Atlanta did this, and-" Hmm ... "this one in Chicago did this, and, and in Southern California they did this."
And the, and the issues were completely different, , all across the board. It's like, "What do we do with this old shopping center?" Or, "What do we do with this old set of train tracks?" Right. Or, "What do we do with LGBT rights?" , and so they, the issues were- Hmm ... [00:11:00] wildly different. And, but they all came ultimately...
Well, I'm, I'm sorry, I gotta finish this, this part of the story first before I get to that punchline. Yeah, yeah. No,
Bart Egnal: please.
Barry Moline: , so, so, , I said, "Dang, this is great. Somebody ought to write a book about this." And then my friend Mark said, "Well, why don't we write a book about it?" And I said, ", oh, well," and I literally thought this.
I said to myself, "Well, Mark is a journalist." Right. "All I have to do is, like, just gather information together." Right. "And then Mark will write it up and I'll get my name on a book." So we started to work on it, and we did a bunch of research. We outlined the whole book. It was fantastic. We had 15 case studies.
We were gonna do all these interviews and so on. And after three weeks, after we got it all together, Mark said, "You know Barry, there's this other project I really wanna work on, so you write the book." "We got... We... All the research is done, the outline's done." Big switch. You know, "The writing the book's just gonna be a snap."
It's easy. So, yeah. [00:12:00] So I was like, "Oh crap, there goes my writer. , okay, well." And then I worked on it- Mm-hmm ... for, for a long time. I, I w- every, I wouldn't say every night, but I worked on it every night that I traveled. Mm-hmm. Hmm. And I traveled a lot. So I was working on the book every week, whether it, at home or traveling.
And, , you know, it took a few years- Mm-hmm ... to pull together. But w- what I, what I found, and this was the fascinating part to me, because I believed that as the CEO, as the person in charge, as the manager in charge, whatever, whatever I was, as the facilitator, that I was required, I was the one that could bring people together.
Bart Egnal: Okay? That was your, your role.
Barry Moline: I'm, that's my job. I'm the, the central facilitator. I can bring teams together. And what I found from all the case studies in the book, and every single one of them had this same through line, [00:13:00] was- It's not the facilitator- Hmm ... that's important. What's most important is to help people get to know each other, and when they get to know each other, they will like each other.
And by like, I don't mean love. I mean, I mean, , you know, be willing to be in the same room with each other, accept each other, and in some cases, even if the relationship is strained, tolerate each other. But nevertheless, we'll say like each other. And once they like each other, when they're given a purpose, something to accomplish, then they will do it- Hmm
without a facilitator. They'll just get it done.
Bart Egnal: So that w- those were the two common elements. There was, there was a appreciation, a mutual appreciation and respect that emerged, if not friendship, and then that combined with purpose allowed the group to connect towards achieving something.
Barry Moline: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Give me an example of connection.
I know there, there, there's a great story you were telling me I think it'd be worth us sharing again around California's [00:14:00] referend on gay marriage. What first didn't work, and then how the power of connection shows what could be possible. Can you tell that story for us?
Barry Moline: Yeah, absolutely. , in the, in the early 2000s, California held a referend on gay marriage.
Mm-hmm. And, and it lost. And the people who were supporting gay marriage ran a typical campaign that you would see today. They made ads that were on TV, they created flyers, and they said, "It's important for equal rights. We all need to have this, , you know, the ability to marry." And based on that argent, they lost.
They- Hmm ... they lost the vote. So in their, in their postmortem of the election, they analyzed the, the situation and thought, "You know, we just didn't... We don't understand why people voted, , no on this." Hmm. , you know, [00:15:00] it, it just, "So let's go out and talk to them." So rather than complain about it, they literally went door to door and, and, , , there's a way in, in politics to identify Democrat voters or Republican voters- Mm-hmm
and so on. So you would figure that the Republican voters or conservative voters would, , would've been the ones to vote no. And, , w- what they did was they had people who were in that community, in that LGBT, , plus community- Mm-hmm ... so people who would've benefited from a yes vote, who would've been able to marry.
They had them go door to door. And it was important for them to be knocking on the door, and not an ally. Mm-hmm. Not somebody who was a, a straight white male or a straight female or whatever it might be, because I'm not impacted by, by that vote or as a supporter, but somebody who's actually impacted. And- It, it didn't work in every case, but nevertheless, [00:16:00] when they got a voter, , you know, at the door, they said, they said who they were and what they were talking about, and they just said, "I- we'd like to talk with you about marriage in general."
And they had a conversation at the door, literally at the door- Hmm ... with people, and some of these conversations were, were short, five minutes, but a lot of them were 30 minutes. Wow. Literally standing at the door or stepping outside or sitting down or maybe just being asked to come in. Hmm. But people had conversations, and here was the nugget of what they were talking about.
The canvassers were just, , asking, "Tell me about your marriage. I mean, do you, do you like being married?" And pausing for a moment and, and thinking about that- So not even talking about
Bart Egnal: the, the bill or the, the vote.
Barry Moline: No. Hmm. Just tell me about your marriage. Okay. I mean, do you like marriage? And everybody said, "Oh, yeah, I love marriage."
"I love my husband. I love my wife." Right. Whatever it might be, this is the core issue of my life. And, and [00:17:00] they would let them talk about that and, and be curious about that and, and say, "Tell me what you, you, what you like about your marriage." Hmm. "And tell me about your life and marriage," and so on. And then the punchline was, and it wasn't a, a, like, gotcha punchline- Right
but it was, it was literally meant to be part of the conversation. The punchline was, "Well, that's what I'd like to have."
Bart Egnal: Wow. Hmm. Hmm. "
Barry Moline: But I can't have that because of laws." And in every case- Hmm ... people were like, "Oh."
Bart Egnal: Hmm. "
Barry Moline: Oh, okay, now I got it." "H. , dang. I, I can see how you've, we're, you're being denied this."
Now, through a s- a series of, of federal actions, it was actually Barack Obama changed the rules nationally, but what they found in California was that they literally had turned around the electorate. Hmm. So that when it came time to talk about [00:18:00] doing another, , referend, they didn't have to because there was sufficient support for the national- Right
change in law. Right. But bottom line is they knew that they had changed it because they had done the follow-up camp- the follow-up survey work and, and found that, that just by having this conversation about the impact of somebody's own experience and ch- achieving an understanding, that it led to a, y- a better relationship and, and a deeper understanding on that issue.
So what d- what does that mean for us? You know, for somebody- Mm-hmm ... just in, in business. I mean, that, that's a very, that's a lightning rod issue. There's no question.
Bart Egnal: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Barry Moline: But a lightning rod issue Can be making sure that, , that the refrigerator stays clean- Yeah ... in the office, , or how we collaborate.
Bart Egnal: Does have tremendous implications. I mean, I think what's fascinating is the tenor, the nature of the actual argent was completely [00:19:00] unchanged from round one to round two, right? What you wanted, you know, what you, what you were after, the rationale, completely unchanged. But it was really connection, right?
It was connecting with the voter to say, tell, like, to really, as you say, understand people, to appreciate people. And, and what was really fascinating was having the person, the canvasser, have been impacted. What I'm hearing is the canvasser didn't even share that much about themself until the end, and it was that reflection.
And I think, you know, it, that, that is powerful, and I think it goes... And of course, the purpose that's tied to that, that that person they were visiting with suddenly became part of the purpose of helping them have what they wanted. So I do think you're right. Look, most business leaders are not dealing with issues of that kind of magnitude or div- you know, tension.
But the same principles apply, right? Whether you want a project approved or you wanna, you know, have the support of a colleague, or you wanna take your company in a new direction, you're going to [00:20:00] have to get people to connect with you, appreciate you, and then find some common purpose in how you go about doing it.
And I do think now that's rarer and rarer, like, that true connection, you know, especially in this age of, you know, shorter attention spans and more technology. So, so it makes a lot of sense that it, , it's applicable. Okay, so you wrote the book. This was one of the examples you covered. How did you define connection?
Like, what is it and why does it matter for leaders?
Barry Moline: Hmm, good question. Connection is just simply understanding another person. Okay. And it doesn't have to be a lot, just a little bit. And the way I approach connection when it comes to dealing with people is just entering into it lightly. Hmm. So as a manager, it's easy...
This is one of the easiest things to do, and that is at the beginning of a meeting, have a, [00:21:00] an icebreaker.
Bart Egnal: Mm-hmm.
Barry Moline: And it doesn't have to be so- well, I should say, it should not be something like, "When was the last time you cried?" No. Right. It doesn't... We don't wanna get that deep. To
Bart Egnal: ease into connection.
Barry Moline: Yeah.
And, and we wanna, we wanna take actions that are workplace appropriate. So it's just simply, "Tell me about the best part of your weekend." Hmm. And, and it's okay to ask somebody about their weekend, and they'll just say, "Oh, it was fine." But if you ask them what the best part of their weekend is- Mm ... they'll start, "Hmm, okay, on Friday night I did this, on Saturday morning I did that, and Saturday afternoon, and Saturday..."
And then they'll come up with something that was, "Oh, that was fun," and they'll talk about that. Or, "What are you streaming these days?" You know. Hmm. "What's interesting to you? A- and tell me about it." And, and everybody's streaming something or listening to a podcast, so, so that's really helpful. And when you hear what somebody's best part of their weekend was or what they're streaming- Mm-hmm[00:22:00]
then it starts the conversation going, and, and you can... and then riff off that. You begin to get to know people when you do a few of these a- and then maybe have a longer conversation later. If you're at the beginning of a meeting and you just say, "We're, hey, we're gonna go around, just name one show that you're streaming and, and, but don't describe it."
Bart Egnal: Right.
Barry Moline: So we all do that, and we might hear something, "Oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's interesting." Right. "I'm gonna write that down. I need to talk to Bart about that later." Right.
Bart Egnal: And
Barry Moline: then you go and chat with Bart and say, "Hey, tell me about, you know, Pluribus," or whatever. Right. You know. Great show. What platform is it on?
Or, yeah.
Bart Egnal: Yeah.
Barry Moline: Or, and what's it about? And...
Bart Egnal: So showing, showing that interest, that repeated interest beyond just how are you doing, right? Having a specific question that begins to create connection. I mean, I think, you know, you, we often hear people say, "I hate small talk," or, "I'm bad at small talk." And what you're saying is that, you [00:23:00] know, we can really, as a leader in particular, intentionally foster an environment where people feel that they can share.
You can make people more comfortable with small talk, and that can then be a bridge to connect, to bigger talk and connection. Is that right?
Barry Moline: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, there are folks that, that suggest when you meet somebody at a networking event, you introduce yourselves, "Hi, I'm Barry," "Hi, I am Bart," instead of saying, "How are you doing?"
Just avoid that completely. Just ask an icebreaker type question. Just say, "So what are you streaming these days?" Just get right into it.
Bart Egnal: Right.
Barry Moline: And then get people talking about something that's a little more meaningful to them. Yeah. And it, and it, and it gets the conversation moving in a little different direction.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. So that's a great first step for connection, to get the conversation going, to have people feel that you're connecting on a han level. Now, you, you mentioned earlier the deeper conversations, because obviously connection has to go beyond the superficial and in particular the relationships that you have.
So as a leader, how would you advise someone to [00:24:00] develop these kinds of deeper connections with the people they work with and who work for them?
Barry Moline: So, , so we talked about those icebreakers. And, and I just want to say this so you can put it in the show notes.
Bart Egnal: Great.
Barry Moline: I have a list of about 35 workplace-appropriate icebreakers.
Bart Egnal: Okay, great.
Barry Moline: And, and they're on my website at barrymolein.com/resources. So you can put that in the show notes, and, and there's no, you know, , there's no emails gathered. There's no, , you don't have to sign up for a mail list or anything like that.
Bart Egnal: Though you may want to. Okay. Good. Yeah. We'll, we'll, , we'll put those there.
Barry Moline: Yes. , so yeah, so connection is first. We talked a bit about purpose- Mm-hmm ... and helping people understand what it is that we're doing. And I wanna, I wanna emphasize that before talking about this last step, which is we all are doing something that is impacting society in a more positive way. Mm-hmm. I- if somebody is a, is a [00:25:00] plber, and they might think, "Oh, I'm just, you know, twisting these, these pipes around and gluing them together, and then moving from, to the next house or the next building and, and putting more pipes together," you're actually keeping society running.
You're keeping the water flowing. You're keeping, you know, people comfortable. I mean, they have to use the toilet. We have to shower. We're doing all those things. And a plber is not just putting pipes together. A pl- a plber is an integral part of our society. Hmm. So it's important for us to regularly, , understand what we do.
It's important for managers, for bosses to tell their employees what they do, both on a global level, I would say once a week, just, "Hey, thanks for doing that. You're, you're keeping society moving forward." And whatever it is, you've gotta look at what your job is, what your function is, and saying how you impact the greater good, the greater world.
Bart Egnal: Sorry, just to grab on that.
Barry Moline: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: That's really connecting people [00:26:00] to the purpose of the organization. Yeah. Their, their- Yes ... work to the organization. Okay, so it's another way, a connection, okay. Yeah.
Barry Moline: But also on a particular project. "Hey, what's this project about? What, what are we doing here? This project, this is what we're gonna accomplish, and this is how it's gonna help."
And it's, it's incbent on the boss to do that- Mm-hmm ... because no one else is gonna do it. No one else is gonna say those words out loud. And it can sound a little hokey to say it. You don't have to say it in a big, lofty way, "We're saving the world." No, you don't have to do that. Hmm. You just have to say, remind people what they're doing and why it's important, and l- and remind them why it is, because you're the only one, as the boss, as the manager, as the task leader, that is going to do that.
So take on that responsibility. It's not hard. Right. And, and while it, it may seem a little hokey or a little, , I don't know, placating in your mind, it's not to the people who are working with you. Okay. They like to know that. I love it. They like to hear it.
Bart Egnal: I
Barry Moline: love it. Yeah. Okay. And then that last part, the caring part, is [00:27:00] managers need to have a- A respectful, caring relationship with the people that they manage.
And I think it's best explained through this example in, in terms of getting to- Mm-hmm ... as you describe, you know, getting to a deeper connection. , you have to, to find out from people what they really wanna do in life. And if that means they want to move up in your organization, i- as the manager, maybe they want your job, maybe they wanna be the CEO, that, that's perfectly fine.
But maybe they want to, , you know, to be a skydiver- Hmm ... or maybe they want to direct movies or whatever it might be. I bring up the movie example because I had a communications director who did a great job for what we did, but we were working in the utility industry, and let's just say that, you know-[00:28:00]
it wa- it, it was a little boring, okay, for what his big goals were- Right ... go- goals were.
Bart Egnal: And- Yeah, re- regulated entities are b- are far from Hollywood, even if they might be in California.
Barry Moline: There you go. Yes. Now, as video technology evolved, we found that we could introduce more videos into what we did, and he told me that he really wanted to get more into, into video making, that he really wanted to...
You know, he had this, this aspiration to sort of like work in Hollywood or something. Hmm. But as the technology has evolved, and today it's, it's, you know, you can really access video quickly, we found a way to make videos on a whole variety of things, docentaries, little features, things that we could use for advocacy.
And I asked him and gave him the financial resources to develop a video department, and he was [00:29:00] over the moon on it. He loved that. But the only way that I learned about that was by having a one-on-one conversation with him where he- Hmm ... felt trusting enough in our relationship where he could say, "You know, what I'd really like to do is this.
, you know, I don't see how we could do it here." But it, it allowed me to look for opportunities- I love it ... for us to, to find that, that hotspot for him, and then we did. Mm-hmm. And, and now he's, he's still in that job and loves it. Mm-hmm. And he's taking... And, you know, the world has moved to video. So he's, he's doing great things with it.
Bart Egnal: think it's such a wonderful story because, you know, for many leaders and managers, there is a fear that if what the person you ask, you're asking once, it doesn't align with what you need. You know, it's best just not to ask at all. You know, for example- You put, you put someone in the job, and you, you have them on a succession planning chart, and you ask them, and they say, "Actually, [00:30:00] I really don't wanna do this much past three years."
You think, "Oh, my gosh. This is a headache. I didn't know how to deal. I'm gonna gotta replace them." And what I love about your story is two things. One, you got higher engagement from him, even had nothing, nothing happened. You know? He was... A- and had you not been able to give him a video, he would've left anyways.
But during the time that he was there, he was gonna be more engaged. But two, lo and behold, because you knew that, when the need emerged, it created this beautiful match. And so I think, I think it's a great story. We, we do have this illusion that if we just keep it surface, it's best not to know. And I think what that story just shows is you, you're better off with an authentic connection to someone so that you can align anyways with where they're headed.
Barry Moline: Yeah, absolutely. And you never know what direction it's going to go. If you as the boss are authentic and, and really want to help- Mm-hmm ... your employee, then it's, it's gonna work [00:31:00] out. Yeah. It, I mean, it will. I mean, I had an employee that said, "I really wanna program a- and, and, and make an app." Hmm. And then it turned out we needed an app.
Bart Egnal: Hmm. So- Now, those are very positive stories. Yeah. Let me play the flip side and devil's advocate of the employee. An employee who says, "Well, you know, if I say that, if I say that my passion and future do not align with the company, I'm worried that I'm gonna be replaced, or they'll start looking for my replacement."
For example, if I'd said, you know, I was asked... Let's say you have a VP of finance in a medi-sized company, and the CFO comes to her one day and says, "I really wanna know your goals, what you're passionate about, what you aspire to, because we think great things of you." And she thinks, "I know that they're, , thinking of me as a future CFO.
I'm not interested in that job. But I also know if I say that, I'll be looked at differently. I won't be considered for promotions, and I won't be considered for compensation. I [00:32:00] won't be considered for stretch assignments even. So maybe I should just keep my mouth shut." What advice would you give to that person on the other side of the manager asking for connection?
Barry Moline: That is a good question. And I, I think that it's okay... Well, well, first of all, as somebody moving up vertically in the ranks of, of, in this example, of a- You know, sort of like a, a bookkeeper, accountant, the senior manager, and then CFO. We would expect that that would be the trajectory. Right. But there's also a trajectory where maybe you move sideways in an organization and, and maybe somebody's inter- while they are working in, on the financial side, they're really interested in marketing or they're, or maybe they're interested in, in becoming a CEO- Mm-hmm
and, and they need broader skills. So obviously what's important is to have enough of a, of a trusting relationship with a boss to be able to [00:33:00] say those things. Right. I agree that it is hard to say, "I don't want to work here anymore." It, I mean, that's difficult. I, I think the way to present it is that- Work here till I
Bart Egnal: find another job.
I mean, that's pretty, Right ... risky.
Barry Moline: Yeah. I, I think it's okay to present your interests, or probably more appropriate to present interests as, as just that, interests. And if an opportunity arises for us to, , to have some, some cross-breeding in the company, or if there's a project in another department that it, that, , you know, could use some of those skills, I'd be interested in- Mm-hmm
in working on those. And, and that's about as far as you can go- Right ... in your example. I mean, 'cause it is hard. Y- I mean, it's... You have to be very
Bart Egnal: emotionally sensitive. So you do have to... Both sides have to be judicious, is what you're saying. Connection's important, but I kind of liken it, , I would liken it then maybe to say you're going for dinner with the fam- other relatives.
You don't like the food they make, but you really don't need to say that, you know? [00:34:00] Right. If you wanna go back. So you find- Yeah ... you find, how can I connect in a way that will deepen the relationship, in a way that will serve both sides? So it's be judicious- Yeah ... be authentic, seek connection, but, you know, be mindful of where it will lead you.
Barry Moline: Yeah. I, I have a, an interesting story of, a quick story, , from a, a podcast that I was interviewing a, a colleague on who was a CEO. And I said, "Tell me about your origin story," and he said he was an entry-level engineer at a utility, okay? Mm-hmm. At a boring utility, but at a utility. And one day, the CEO, who was, I don't know, 10 levels above him, whatever, was making the rounds, and, and landed in his department, and, , just giving a brief overview, and then maybe had a mixer and was talking to some of the employees.
And, and the CEO said to, to this particular guy, Glenn, he said, "So [00:35:00] Glenn, what do you wanna do?" And Glenn said, "Well, I'd really like your job- someday."
Bart Egnal: Right.
Barry Moline: And the CEO said, "Well, that's great, Glenn. I, I really appreciate you wanting that. That's good to aspire to. Okay? Good." And, and- Glenn didn't think any more of it.
Bart Egnal: Right.
Barry Moline: And, and then three months later, Glenn got tapped to take a leadership class. Hmm. And it turned out that that CEO, he had planted the seed- Hmm ... in that CEO's mind, and he said, "You know what? This guy was bold enough just to say it. I'm gonna look out for that guy." I love it. And, and he started him on a track to, , intensify his leadership skills and grow as a leader, and as, as long as he was continuing to grow, he got more and more opportunities, and that's why he ultimately became the CEO.
It's a great story. And, and I... Yeah, I, like, fell over. I, like- Yeah ... really? And that's what... It was that easy? It's like, well, it wasn't easy. Right. But he at least got recognized by- That started it ... saying it out loud. So I think, Bart, your point is that it's [00:36:00] okay to sort of judiciously, you know, maybe even cautiously identify some of your interests and not say, "I ain't working here anymore," or- Right
I'm, like you said, you know, I'm, I'm just staying in this job until I can find the best job- Right ... that I can. But it's okay to say, "Hey, , there are some things that we do or maybe some places we can expand into that interest me, and, and I'd like to do that if the opportunity arises."
Bart Egnal: I love it. I love it.
Okay, so let's... We've talked about connection, we've talked about how to foster it, we've talked about what to do when someone asks your a connection. I wanna just bring this home to this moment in time we are at. You wrote the book in 20- You... Pre-COVID, right? '
Barry Moline: 19. 2019. '20- Yes ...
Bart Egnal: right before the pandemic. You know, and then we went through a few years of, you know, everyone starved for connection.
And even today as we've reemerged, connection is taking many shapes and increasingly intermediated by technology. What are your thoughts on the state of connection today, and any [00:37:00] changes in how leaders should foster connection since you wrote the book?
Barry Moline: Connection has gotten worse. Hmm. And it's... I, I would say we could, we could blame technology.
, I mean, what COVID brought on in terms of technology and the distancing, we don't spend as much time talking to each other first. , I call it connection before content. We, we need to connect first before we talk about actual work, and we just don't spend as much time doing that. We get right down- Hmm
to business. And it doesn't happen naturally. So as a result of that, what I prophesize is that as a leader, and, and I, I g- I'm gonna impose this responsibility on our leaders, but it really is everyone's part, f- is you have to be intentional about it. You have to say, "Okay, I know icebreakers might seem stupid."
I personally, as a [00:38:00] CEO, I hated them. Hated them. Until I realized, oh, wow, I, we are actually connecting here. We are actually developing some relationships. So, h, I guess, I guess they do serve a purpose. And now I, you know, I, I... To say I force people to do them- Right ... , you know, that's one way to look at it, but I've realized that they always work in some way as long as you keep it light- Mm-hmm
and then allow people to, to engage afterwards. But still, the point is that if you want a better team, then you've got to say, "I want it. I'm gonna intentionally do this- Right ... and see how it works." And I would bet that 10 out of 10 times it's gonna work. Mm-hmm. It just takes a little time. I've- Mm-hmm ... I've told people when they've said, "W- we need a better team, you know?
How long is it gonna take? Let's- Yeah. I'm gonna... I need this now." Right. And, , what I say is, "You know, it- it'll take about three months of consistent effort to do it." Mm-hmm. [00:39:00] I, I, when I was in Florida, I was in charge of putting trucks on the road after hurricanes. So e- after a hurricane would hit Florida, you'll see on the Weather Channel or, or the, the national news, trucks all going into, to Florida to help restore power, and that was my responsibility.
And- Hmm ... when, , in 2007, we had a bunch of hurricanes go through the state, and the utilities were terrible at restoring- Hmm ... power. It took way too much time, and the reason why is because the utilities and the people in those organizations did not know each other. Hmm. So we realized afterwards, the utilities did, we said, "We gotta get our staffs together.
We gotta spend some time working together trying to figure out how to do this, especially in an emergency," 'cause in an emergency you don't have time- Right ... to, to- You can't create
Bart Egnal: connection. You need to rely on connection.
Barry Moline: Yeah. So we, so we did that, and- And s- and just started to get people together. It cost a little bit of money to do that- Mm-hmm
to actually [00:40:00] bring people from different cities together, but we didn't have to do a lot of it, 'cause as soon as we did, people, we just let them go. And like- Right ... whoa, these people are talking, they were face to face. Right. They were loving it. And then when there was an emergency, they got right down to business.
Right. So it was, it was really valuable to get them- Right ... talking to each other first. And then we actually- Hmm ... , and then in a micro level with my own staff, who was already good at working well together, in an emergency, you know, people are barking orders, there, there, there's all kinds of stuff going on.
And what we did was we walked through what would happen in a disaster. Right. And, and then we said, "Okay, we're just sitting around a table. Now what happens if, if you, if Sheryl- Mm-hmm ... something happens to you and you're angry at everyone else?" I love it. "How are we gonna respond?" And, and we all said, "Well, we know Sheryl's not angry, 'cause we know Sheryl."
Right. "We like Sheryl." 'Cause we know Sheryl. Right. Yeah. "But somebody's breathing down her neck, and we need to [00:41:00] back her up." Hmm. "So we need to say, 'Sheryl, it's okay, we're gonna help you.'" Hmm. And, and we would create all kinds of oddball situations- Right. ... and then talk what, what it would be like to get through them.
And then when the ba- when the poop is flying and, and those bad things happen, we, we know to say, "Hey, it's okay. I'm here. I'm gonna help you." Yeah. And it immediately lowers the temperature. I love it. And even in an emergency, we help each other up.
Bart Egnal: So- Well, I think it's, I think it's a great close. You know, I think that what I'm taking away from this last section is connection is more and more difficult to create, more and more rare, and yet eminently desirable, and that you as a leader, or really anyone, I mean, we're talking about anyone, can do small things to build connection that in times of crisis, in times of tension, you can draw on.
And so that's really what I'm leaving with, and I think, you know, the, the topic, I know you wrote it in 2019, I think it's more relevant than, than [00:42:00] ever today. And, , you know, and amazingly, even though the world has changed a lot, the fundamentals that you outline remain the bedrock of connection. So Barry, I'm really glad you wrote the book.
I'm glad you came on the pod. I think it's a critically important topic.
Barry Moline: Thank you, Bart. I've really enjoyed the conversation.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. Yeah, and I know you mentioned earlier some of the resources on your site. , people listening might be wondering, like, how can they get more from you, how they wanna invite you to speak at an event.
Where should they go, and what do you have on offer?
Barry Moline: Well, let's see. Two quick things. Obviously, my website, barrymolein.com. The resources of the icebreakers is barrymolein.com/resources, and you'll see the icebreaker- Mm-hmm ... , , click right there. And people can contact me at barry@barrymolein.com. So I appreciate that.
Okay. And I do keynote speaking. I talk to- Mm-hmm ... to folks at conferences and do workshops on, on leadership, teamwork, and I also talk about influence and persuasion, which is a really fun topic.
Bart Egnal: It's a perfect intersection with the Inspire Podcast. So yeah, , I- it's no wonder we had a good conversation.
Barry, thanks so much for coming on.
Barry Moline: Thanks, Bart.
Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire Podcast and the conversation that I had, , with our guests. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.
I love the comments, appreciate the reviews, and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It's really how word of mouth has spread the Inspire Podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned. We'll be back in two weeks with another inspiring conversation.
Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire.
