Rethinking Value in the Age of AI with Dr. Keith Keating
AI and rapid technological change are reshaping traditional career paths and creating new opportunities for professionals to rethink how they contribute and create value at work.
In this episode of the Inspire Podcast, Bart Egnal speaks with Dr. Keith Keating, Chief Learning Officer at BDO Canada, thought leader, and keynote speaker, about the shift from a knowledge economy to a value economy and why lifelong learning is more important than ever.
Drawing on his personal journey and the challenges he faced growing up, Keith explores how AI and other disruptions are redefining what organizations value and what it means to make a meaningful contribution. He makes the case that understanding, creating, and communicating value should be a priority for professionals at every level.
Through practical examples and insights from his Value Obsession Framework, Keith offers a fresh perspective on how to approach your work, recognize opportunities to create value, and ensure the impact you make is understood and celebrated.
Learn more about Keith and find his books here.
Show notes
00:30 Show Intro
01:06 Introducing Keith
02:11 Bart asks Keith to describe himself
02:25 Knowledge is useless unless it is shared
02:51 High school dropout
03:58 Father said, "You'd never amount to anything"
04:33 Periods of addiction and homelessness
05:10 Bart talks about the age of AI and "What is value?"
06:59 The shift that we're seeing
08:00 We live in a value economy
08:46 Bart reflects on how THG was in the knowledge business
10:30 Keith's experiences at BDO
10:59 Expertise is not enough — what are you doing with it?
12:08 Think more like an entrepreneur
13:33 How are people feeling about these changes?
14:18 Never stop learning!
15:05 Being a problem solver
16:20 Bart gives an example of a VP
17:44 The expert paradox
18:33 Four steps to value
18:55 Seeking out value
19:02 Finding the friction
20:28 Bart asks for an example of seeing smoke
20:55 Expense report example of adding value
24:37 Value is tricky because it is in the eye of the beholder
25:03 Value is contextual
25:21 Creating value = solving problems that matter
27:04 Measure the value
29:10 Client and customer value
29:31 Value creation compass
33:33 How should people think about measuring value?
35:40 Tell the story of your value
37:31 Articulate your value
40:26 Bart summarizes the conversation
41:19 Keep learning!
42:06 Where can people find more?
42:45 Thank-yous
43:05 Outro
Show Transcript
Keith Keating: You have to keep learning. We, it's no longer an option at this point. I feel like there was a time period where maybe it was because change happened much slower, but change truly is happening faster than ever, and the only way to keep pace with change is to keep learning. Our careers are like nonstop conveyor belts.
You've got to keep moving and learning no matter what stage of your career that you're in
Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal, president and CEO of the Humphrey Group. And if you've ever asked yourself, "How can you develop an authentic leadership presence?"
Or, "How can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word?" Then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life.
My guest on today's episode of the Inspire Podcast is Dr. Keith Keating, and Keith is the chief learning officer for BDO Canada. He is also a globally sought-after public speaker on the topic of learning and leadership, which we'll be talking about, and he's a lecturer at the University of Pennsylvania.
Keith, welcome to the Inspire Podcast.
Keith Keating: It's an honor to be here. Thank you for having me.
Bart Egnal: Yeah it's great to have you. And, when we were first connecting, BDO, I've had people from BDO on the pod before. BDO has for me and my firm, been a great provider. And so you and I got connected, I think, about six months ago to talk about leadership and learning and what BDO is doing.
And when I met you I felt you're not a traditional chief learning officer. You have for one, you're both a chief learning officer and you're giving keynotes about, learning and your own journey. So maybe rather than trying to do justice to the unique background that's led you to this point in your career, I'll turn it over to you.
So describe yourself for people listening and the many dualities of Keith Keating.
Keith Keating: The one, the first duality that you talked about is chief learning officer and keynote speaker, and part of that comes from a quote from Michio Kaku, who's a nuclear physicist, and he said, "Knowledge is useless if it's not shared."
And I've learned over the years, I'm doing a lot of work inside these amazing organizations. Why keep it there? Why not go out and share the work that we're doing so others can learn from it? So that's the connection- ... with the keynote speaking. But I suppose what you might be getting at is, by saying I'm not the traditional learning leader- Is that I am a high school dropout.
So I think that's much more important than my current role or current title. I struggled with school and learning significantly growing up. My father was in the US military, so I was raised in Germany, Korea, Japan, and then eventually made my way to the US, and by that point, my education was significantly skewed.
For example, I never studied US history. That's the flip. So I studied world history.
Yeah. And then the US basically focuses on US history. My reading was behind. I always struggled with math. I hated math. Ironically, I'm now at an accounting firm.
Different discussion. So long story short, I struggled with school to the point where I had been labeled with a learning disability. And I had to make the decision to drop out of high school. I was 15, I think very early into 10th grade, and essentially it was to save myself- ... from the bullying, from the emotional, physical turmoil.
And when I did this, my father told me, "You will not amount to anything. You will be working- Wow ... at fast food for the rest of your life." First of all, as if there's anything wrong with working in fast food, which there isn't.
Bart Egnal: But just tough to hear from your father.
Keith Keating: Of course, because at that point, what he's communicating was that was my ceiling, that's all- Right
you're gonna become, and so this is as far as you're gonna be able to go in life. And then when you hear that, you don't necessarily know how to challenge it. You believe it- ... 'cause it's your parent telling you this. So I carried that shame for years, and that shame led to periods of addiction, periods of homelessness.
And so when people see the version today- ... the doctorate or the books or the executive role or whatever they don't see the journey that came before it- ... get me to here. And I think th- that struggle is what differentiates me maybe from some other learning leaders, as you were, insinuating, because I know what it feels like to have that struggle with learning.
Bart Egnal: It is. Yeah. I think that, and thanks for sharing. I know, your o- your own vulnerability and openness is at the heart of why your story and what we're gonna talk about today is so compelling.
Because, it, you have had to rebuild your own sense of self and reshape, what you do to bring value to the world and the market. And, when we were talking ab- and preparing for this conversation, we talked about the fact that we're in this, we're in this time now where, AI is really accelerating a massive transformation- in what is defined as value, right? And it can be very destabilizing for people who, let's say, have, spent years in s- learning one skill. Just as an example, I know a lot of, years ago, five years ago, the, the rhetoric was, "Learn to code, you'll have a job for life." Here we are today, right?
And, maybe not quite as maybe you can manage your agents who are doing the coding, but
Keith Keating: people- Was even two and a half years ago, I think it was prompt engineer. That's right. That became overnight a, a career track in universities. That's like the, that's a complicated way of just saying think about what you want it to do and ask it in a way that it knows how to respond.
Bart Egnal: Yes, maybe Socratic method would be better but so value, what value is changing, and I know you are really obsessed with this idea of value. What is value? What does it mean to create value? And you in your own life have had to clearly think about that intentionally. I don't think a lot of people do.
I think a lot of people just assume that what they're doing because they're being paid a job, it's value. And so I wanted to have you on the pod to have this conversation about the shift in the world and value and what it means to be obsessed with value, something I think that you make a compelling case that everyone needs to be.
Keith Keating: The, the tr- the shift that we're seeing, for years you were rewarded based on your knowledge.
And the more knowledge that you had, the more valuable you could be. But that no longer exists anymore because once upon a time, knowledge was scarce, and scarcity equals power, and therefore, knowledge was currency.
It was king. We lived in a knowledge economy. I have access to more information and more knowledge in my pocket than any library on the planet, and you have access to it, and so do- ... the organizations around us, and so do your competitors. And so knowledge alone is no longer a competitive advantage anymore.
Instead, it's about what do you do with that knowledge? How do you combine that with the technical tools available? How fast are you able to do something with it- ... with what you know, and how quickly can you create impact, outcome, or output, also known as value?
So the way that I describe it is today we live in a value economy where everything that you do must be determined and based on the value that it's creating.
Our organizations exist- ... for one purpose To create value- ... also known as money. But we'll call it as just value- ... in this case, 'cause we have some, maybe some- ... al- altruistic companies out there. But that's the goal is for them to create value. Yes. And so if as workers, we're not putting that first, and we're not able to answer the question, "What value am I creating?"
Then you are absolutely at risk. Why would an organization keep you if you aren't able to articulate your value?
Bart Egnal: I think you're, I think you're absolutely right. I'll say that, in my career, we were a knowledge economy for, and knowledge business for so long. And, it was...
People would come to me or The Humphrey Group for access to the intellectual capital around leadership communication. I would go talk to a client, I remember, this was in, say, 2005, right? And I'd explain to them that, they should think about leadership and communication as intrinsically linked, and that there were frameworks ultimately drawn from rhetoric that we had.
You could... and this was like, a secret sauce, like giving them, you know, peanut butter and chocolate and combining it into, Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. And they're like, "How many bars can I order?" That was the... and now the knowledge that we had that essentially, people would pay to access is no longer, I would say, unique or difficult to access.
And so the value, as you say, is really about how we can combine that knowledge with the training, with the teaching we have, with the fra- the design to make people better speakers. And so I think for this shift, if you've been in a company and you've spent your career, as you said, building up expertise, and that's...
I- implicitly, that was your value. You were, going through economics because you would accrue value through your knowledge and the company would hire you. Or you would become, an expert in some area, and so the company would pay you. And so just as companies are rewiring value, I think it can be very unsettling for people in companies to say, "Hey, I've spent 10, 20 years of my career building expertise.
That was my value. Now what am I being valued for?" Are you seeing that in, in organizations, both BDO and also with, others that you speak to?
Keith Keating: Absolutely. I'll speak to BDO specifically. We're going through a massive transformation right now where people have spent their entire careers being technical experts In how to put together an audit for an organization, how to help you from a tax perspective.
That technical expertise is no longer good enough.
Bart Egnal: If- It's just table stakes now.
Keith Keating: It is. What are you doing with that expertise? What's the output, the outcome from it? What problems can you solve with that expertise? So for us historically, it was very cyclical. You had your clients, your tax clients- and you knew every March they were gonna call you, and this is what we did, and then we're finished. Okay, great. Have a great year. If you need something, call me, otherwise we'll see you next time. That's no longer enough. As organizations evolve and become more complex, the needs that they have become more complex.
And so for us, we are on a trajectory to become sales practitioners. And for us, sales was a really ugly and dirty word. Sa- we never used sales before 20 months ago. Okay. We used business development, and business development was only for a few people. We had specific job function titles that were called- business developers, and it was their job to go out and be the hunters. Fast-forward, sales equals helping. If you are helping your client solve a problem Ultimately, that will lead to sales. So what we're integrating now is that your technical expertise is not enough. How can you embed yourself into that client's world to understand them?
How can you think more like an entrepreneur? Because we talk about future skills. One of them is thinking like an entrepreneur.
Everyone will need to think that way. Entrepreneurs have to understand who do they serve, what do those people need, and what are we offering? Is that good enough for somebody to actually value?
And how do I get to understand that from them?
Bart Egnal: Oh, and by the way, is someone else gonna be offering something better? I feel having spent, really 15 years from when, or was when I bought the company to now, you live in this excitement of what, how am I gonna offer value, and fear of who's offering more value than me.
It's this like unending, cycle to be in. But K- Keith, I'm wondering, you ... and I like what, the way you're describing this shift, both in terms of organizations and like BDO, you say, BDO is making this shift, but you're also saying people inside have to change. How are people like in your organization doing with this?
Like this is a ... You said, for a long time there's been your expertise is your value, and now you're saying you've gotta, solve problems, be a salesperson," all these things. Are people troubled by this? Excited by it? What's the quantum of experience that they're having?
Keith Keating: If I were to generally describe it, I would say it's uncomfortable.
Growth, change, evolution is uncomfortable because now you're in this messy part where I don't know this. This is what I've known, and I got really comfortable with it, and I was really good at it. And now you're telling me that's not enough? So there's a whole psychological component that comes along with it, with recognizing, okay, I have to change.
I was really good before. I've always been told I'm good. Now you're telling me that I can be even better, and I have to go and I have to learn something new? This doesn't feel that good. It's tough. Which is why I advocate for my, my slogans are never stop learning- ... first of all, because if you have that mindset, then you are going to always be able to evolve.
And it's one of the things I, as I reflect on my life, I feel thankful for now that I did have the childhood that I had where we moved- ... every year. I was forced to be adaptable and resilient before I could even spell the words or even knew what they meant. And I can now be dropped anywhere in the world.
I can-- physically, I can take on any job. I can learn anything. So I don't worry about the future of my job. Y-the, the learning development industry may completely collapse. I'm not worried, because I'll figure out what needs to happen. At the end of the day, organizations have problems today. And organizations are gonna have problems tomorrow. My superpower is being a problem solver and learning what I need to learn to solve that gap, to- ... to, to be that linchpin. And so that's the mindset that we're trying to embed- ... in others at this point, is that, yes, your expertise is a foundation.
But what you continue to learn and how you apply it to problems that matter, that's how you keep creating value. And that's why the value mindset is so important. Every single worker today and tomorrow must be becoming obsessed with value- ... because our organizations exist for it, our clients exist for it.
Therefore, we need to be very clear and articulate in how do we create it, and if I don't know, how can I figure that out, and what do I need to continuously be learning? Because we're-- change is the only constant. That is our new normal. It's not gonna slow down. Agreed. This is the slowest pace of change you will ever feel for the rest of your life.
Accept it, buckle up, my friends and figure out how you
Bart Egnal: evolve. And here we go.
Keith Keating: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So let's delve into this value mindset you discussed and I know you, you have a framework that you talk about. Because let's imagine I'm a, vice president in M&A, and I've built my career building great financial models and being able to explain them to the client.
Now, my expertise, I can-- my client says to me, "Hey, Bart I can build this model with Claude. What are you gonna bring for me?" So what, what advice, if you h- if you have one of these VPs come to you and say, "Keith, I'm a little apprehensive here. This is what I was paid for by the client, and now they're questioning it," talk to me about what it means to shift to a value mindset.
And then I know-- and then lay out at a high level your four-part framework of how to go about it.
Keith Keating: If I were coaching this person, the first question I would ask them, "So that's it? That's all that you were doing?"
Bart Egnal: Yeah maybe he says, "Okay, you're right. It's not just the model, it's the ability to use the model to help them evaluate different scenarios for that, for their business that companies they could buy, where it would create value, and then guide them through that process."
Keith Keating: Yeah. A- and I would say that there's actually more there because then you're able to communicate it back to them. Assumingly, you're also able to understand that client and their needs, and hopefully you are also looking for other opportunities, other challenges, problems that may exist and other ways- that you could have helped. But we often only look at the one thing that we're thinking of, and I call it the expert paradox. Okay. Is o- once you've become an expert in this area, you get a little bit lazy with it. You forget that there are transferable skills, transferable value accompaniments that come along with it.
It's not just that one thing- ... that you're doing. We're actually multifaceted, complex creatures by design and by nature. But because we've been doing this one thing for so long, that's how I view myself. I'm this. I am my job title. And that's why I think job titles can be so destructive, is it's just- a version of you that you were hired for- ... but it doesn't mean that's your full capabilities. But often we allow that to become how we see ourselves.
Bart Egnal: And it may not even be why your clients are hiring you. Absolutely.
Keith Keating: And so the value obsession framework gives us a- practical model that we can use to take a step back and think about value.
It is- Okay ... your responsibility to understand your value, to create your value, and to recognize value in others. So I'll share with you the, the four- Okay, great ... steps, if you will. So the first step is seeking out value. And particularly what I mean by that is, and the quote I'll use, "Find the friction, find the value opportunity."
So an organization, friction exists everywhere. Okay. It could be skill gaps, it can be problems, frustrations, challenges, technology issues, whatever it is. But it's those annoying things that are keeping people from being effective in their roles. And I think of friction like two sticks that you're rubbing together, and you rub them together long enough and eventually there turns into smoke, and then there's a spark, and then there's a fire.
Every organization has little fires everywhere, and sometimes- ... some really big fires. So when I say find the friction, find the value opportunity, it means instead of just complaining, instead of just listening to somebody bitch about the problems that they're having- ... and how annoying it is, and jumping on that bandwagon, you follow the smoke literally to the fire.
That is your opportunity to create value. It may not have anything to do with your job, but that goes back to my earlier statement about the job titles and the job descriptions. They put us in these little boxes- ... and these little boxes limit the belief in ourself and limit what we think our capabilities and contributions could be.
If you step outside of that box, there are value opportunities that exist ad nauseam all around.
Find those.
Bart Egnal: Can you give me an example in your career-
...
Bart Egnal: Where you saw smoke in a role that maybe wasn't your, to extend the metaphor, you weren't hired to fight that fire- Sure
but you headed towards it and created value in unexpected way?
Keith Keating: BDO, when I joined, I had to fill out my first expense report, and it was- Okay ... painful. It took about 30 minutes to do, and I thought, "I guess this is just the way we do things here. I'm not gonna make a fuss over it. Maybe it's just me. It's a learning curve."
Fast-forward, I'm traveling with colleagues, and I realize that every time somebody has to pay, it's almost a, an argument to see who will pay.
Bart Egnal: It's such a pain to get reimbursed.
Keith Keating: Exactly. Implicitly, what it's saying is that is a frustration because now I have to go back and spend time doing this. So then I realized, okay, it's not just me.
There's actually smoke signals here that this is a problem. Then I dug in deeper to figure out, wait a minute, we actually have people in roles who are- There to do expense reports. Then we dug a little bit deeper, and we did the calculation of the amount of hours that are wasted on this. So I asked my team, "Let's look into this."
"Is there a way that we could do something about this?" And it turns out, yes- ... there was actually a very easy solution. Wow. You could just take a picture of your receipt. You could send it to a specific email address to Concur, and Concur would automatically fill everything in except for one or two fields for you, and it reduced the time to fill it out from 30 minutes to five minutes.
Bart Egnal: Wow.
Keith Keating: So extrapolate that. Do the math. And when you
Bart Egnal: think about the billable rates in a professional services organization- Absolutely ... and the amount of money that's worth to the company.
Keith Keating: Absolutely. So we packaged it up, and we did a marketing campaign to make sure that everybody in the company knew about this solution.
Was this our problem? No. This is an operations issue. Did we need to step up? No. But this was an example of fires everywhere, and fast-forward, what's ironic about this, since then, we've lost- launched programs with Harvard, with Ivy sales academies. The number one- ... compliments or feedback- that I continuously hear is, "Thank you for reducing the amount of time that it takes- ... to do my expense reports."
Bart Egnal: Wow.
Keith Keating: Because that was a shared fire that everyone felt.
Bart Egnal: The value accrued
Keith Keating: to
Bart Egnal: everyone. Yeah.
Keith Keating: And how many times did somebody hear people complaining about it, or did I myself complain about it?
So that's just an example. It's very easy to get caught up in the- I love it ... the whining rather than, "Okay, can we actually do something here to solve this?"
Bart Egnal: I love it.
Keith Keating: So these fires exist everywhere, it's just not in our job description, and we often have this mindset of that's somebody else."
My career has excelled in being that somebody else. Seth Godin wrote this book called Linchpin. If you're not familiar with Seth, highly recommend it. Amazing
Bart Egnal: marketing
Keith Keating: guru. Yeah. And if you don't wanna read the book, go to ChatGPT and get the Coles Notes from it. But the, the premise is simple, and it's basically what I built mine off of, that those problems exist.
Rather than being somebody to sit back, be the linchpin that holds that little piece together- ... that's an integral part of the engine.
Bart Egnal: I love it. I love where you're going because, even if you have a boss who is "Stay in your lane," you're... Everyone's lane has stakeholders, whether they're customers or internal.
And what you're really getting at is the definition of value may not be what's in your job description or what you're told to do. The real definition of value, which as you're describing evolves constantly, is, defined by the people you serve, right? Or, and who have- 100% ... evolving needs. And so you've really gotta kinda wake up every day and say, "What do they need from me today?"
And you can solve that not just by having the solutions, but by, bringing connections to bear.
Keith Keating: That's what makes value so complicated. In no way am I saying value is an easy word. It's a seemingly deceptive word. It has- Yes ... two syllables, five letters. It looks very cute. But we have very little control over it- because value is in the eye of the beholder, which in this case- And changes Ex- exactly ... and it changes constantly.
Bart Egnal: It... Sure. Like to your point around the value of domain knowledge, being devalued, if you will.
Keith Keating: Contextual.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So let's... So point one, seek out value. Seek
Keith Keating: value.
Bart Egnal: Point two, create value.
What's point three of the framework?
Keith Keating: Yeah. Let me just go back to create value. Sure. Yeah. So it's not as simple as just go out and create value.
Bart Egnal: Okay. '
Keith Keating: Cause creating value is contextual. Specifically what I talk about is creating value is solving problems that matter.
Many people- And matter to your
Bart Egnal: stakeholders.
Keith Keating: Exactly. Many people are busy. If you ask anybody, like, "Hey, are you busy?" "Oh, yes, I'm very busy. I have so many projects I'm working on, so many orders that I need to take in." And the question that I challenge them with is, are those the ones that matter? Not, are you just being busy? And this is really about time management, which- people still struggle with because they equate I'm busy to I'm producing and creating value.
Are those the problems that matter to your stakeholders? So for example, the three questions that I use as I'm evaluating anything I'm working on- ... the first question is, why am I doing this? And that's not petulant and combative. It's not. It's literally asking, do I understand why I'm doing this, or did somebody tell somebody who told somebody and they told me- and I'm an order taker and I'm doing it? I would say three-fourth of my career I haven't known why I'm doing something. It's just somebody told me to do it. Second question: What business priority does this serve or does it link to? Your organization has business priorities, your stakeholders has priorities.
Is what you're working on connected back to them? And if not, then why are you doing it? And the third question is: what is going to change as a result of this? And often I have not been able to answer that. I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm doing my part of the widget. When I'm finished, I pass it off, and then they take it and they go.
Good luck. I don't, won't know what happens to it. So reflecting on those three questions with everything that you're working on will help you identify, are you working on solving problems that matter which will ultimately create value?
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Keith Keating: Get into the third element, that is measure the value. So how do we know that- Yes, how do you do this?
yeah, that we made a difference? In my research, what I was looking for was, is there generally speaking a way that organizations look at value traditionally? And the answer is yes. There are four ways that organizations- Okay ... look at value. First of all, they look at value by their people. Are they investing in their people?
What are their people contributing? What are the skill sets that their people ha- ... people have? So that's the area that I excel in, that learning development- ... excels in, focusing on your people, your true north. Then we move east to driving business growth. This is about ROI. This is about your bottom line or your revenue.
This is about your business growth, your... are you striving in new markets? Are you using AI and technology to create something new, something innovative? How does your work support the growth of the business?
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Keith Keating: Then south is organizational resiliency. We know change is happening faster than ever.
It's our new normal. When change happens externally, your organizations need to be able to pivot internally. How does your work or does your work support organizational resiliency? It could be operational effectiveness. It could be culturally speaking. It could be the health and wealth of your employees.
It could be agility and flexibility of the business itself. We saw with COVID the businesses that could pivot overnight and the businesses that couldn't. GM stopped making cars, and they started making protective gear.
A- and then you saw ano- other businesses that weren't able to, to pivot, and they Resulted or worked on that global model that needed the supply chain to be intact, and then that broke and they faltered.
So how's the organization resilient, and are you supporting that? And then lastly, we have client or customer value. And this is focusing on the value and perspective that they see. Are we building trust with them? What's their experience like- Right ... working with us? How are we going to the market with our brand externally?
So long story short, too late, this is the value creation compass. Okay. And it is a tool that I use with my stakeholders. And I will literally print it off or have a digital version, and I will sit it down in front of them, and it has the four directions. And I treat it like a compass. And I ask them- "what areas are you most focused on or worried about today?" We'll use this as a way to- ... drive the conversation. Now, most of the times, the stakeholders will look at it and say, "All four of these." And then I'll say what happens when you try and go in all four directions at once?" And they'll say you just go in circles."
Exactly. We're not gonna go in circles, so therefore I need you to narrow down which two areas are your strongest areas of focus right now that you want me- ... to support you in. And then maybe they'll say, "Client value and business growth."
Bart Egnal: Perfect. Because when I hear the compass, I hear, it's really, at the C level, right?
If you're a CEO or you're a senior executive, you run the whole practice, y- you're thinking about all four. Whereas I think about individuals, they may not, for example, have responsibility for, the development of their talent. But they w- they might be customer focused on the left. So is it fair to say that all organizations need to consider all four, as you say, maybe place emphasis on two.
But individual contributors or professionals or leaders of small teams may be more focused on, one or two?
Keith Keating: Yes, but I would probably argue, I don't know that you would be best served to say all four are our priority right now.
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Keith Keating: Because it gets to the point where, and I see this all the time- Everything's a priority, nothing's a priority
everything's a priority, and then nothing's a priority. So is organizational resilience what you actually need to be focusing on right now for the next six months? Maybe you're stable in that space.
You're developing people. Yes, of course, I would always support that. But does that need to be our priority right now?
Or are we having an issue with revenue? And as a result of revenue, a- are we having problems with our clients? Are we not serving our clients? Are we having client file errors and issues? Or we're having to do rework? So these are all- So you really
Bart Egnal: have to measure, when you say measure value, it's measuring which of these is gonna generate the most value for your firm or for yourself in- Yes
in your role.
Keith Keating: Yep. And generating value doesn't necessarily mean it's dollar sign value, per se. But it's the areas that they're focused on. And the trick now is once they've identified that, your job is now to reframe what you are doing in that language. They've just told you what's important to them.
And now you need to reframe everything to support those one or two areas.
Bart Egnal: So how would... give me an example. You say BVO is undergoing this journey now of transition from, I guess an expert who you call to people who are out there solving problems. Whi- which of, you look at your organization, which of those four would you say is the highest priority, and how is that showing up in what the people are doing?
Keith Keating: I would say right now business growth is probably the priority.
We need to continue growing our firm. We have reached a point where what we did to get us here is not gonna be what gets us there.
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Keith Keating: And so we're at a really special place, I think, where we're acknowledging that. And so business growth is ultimately around sales, and sales is our biggest priority.
And it's, as I mentioned earlier-
Mindset and culture that sales equals helping. So secondarily, that does touch on empowering our people through skills- ... and it will result in clients- More resiliency. Exactly, and organizational resiliency. But the focus is around business growth- Okay
and then secondarily it's touching those points.
Bart Egnal: And so when you defi- when you select that as your priority and you're measuring value, do you always seek to quantify or is there a m- when you talk about value and measuring value, are you quantifying? Is it a mix of quantitative and qualitative?
How should people think about measuring value?
Keith Keating: It's a mix, and I would say it's contextual to your situation. I don't wanna give a prescriptive environment- ... or a prescriptive response that it has to be one or the other. It's gonna vacillate back and forth depending on the context. So for example, for us, it's not quantitative Completely.
There is actually a lot of qualitative within that. For example I guess quantitative is are we seeing sales grow?
Yes. Qualitative, do we have the confidence? Are we building the confidence level of our practitioners- ... to evolve past I'm a technical expert, I sit behind the computer and I do my technical thing- now to where they're comfortable being in front of a client, having these consultative conversations to understand what it means to be a trusted advisor and to have those difficult conversations with them. So right now, what I'm most interested in is the confidence level. I want people to feel capable and comfortable to be able to have these important conversations, which does have a trigger effect to the outcomes.
Bart Egnal: So I think that's really important for people listening, that as you make this shift to value creation, as you've defined what value is for your organization and how you can contribute to it, having some clear definitions that will allow you to really measure that you're achieving that.
So I love your example of confidence. If you put confidence in the sales conversation as a defined outcome, then someone who goes out and has a great conversation with confidence, even if it doesn't lead to business immediately, will s- be able to recognize that they are creating value that's contributing to the larger transformation that you're under- undergoing.
Does that capture it?
Keith Keating: Spot on.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So then, so let's go to your fourth and final step in value creation. So you've thought about value, you've created it, you've, you understand how to measure it. What's the last step?
Keith Keating: Tell the story of your value. This is probably the weakest area that I see- Okay
generally speaking. Either people aren't comfortable they see it as I don't wanna toot my own horn. Like self-promotion. Yeah. It's not that. You need to help people connect the dots. It-- They're not doing it automatically. Here's the challenge, here's what we did, here's what changed, and here's why it matters.
And this is where our work connects, because creating value and communicating value require different capabilities. You can be good at creating value, but then struggle at communicating for it. Right And like I said, I hear people say, "I don't wanna promote myself. My work should speak for itself."
Bart Egnal: It never does.
Keith Keating: We do- we would all love that, but that's just not how reality is. Your work doesn't reach the room where decisions are being made, and the people in that room may not understand its significance unless you help them. And you can tell your story with humility. You can give others credit.
Never is it me or I. And this is something that I learned the hard way early in my career. I remember reporting out to a CEO at a specific company. I just kept saying, "I, me, I, I, I." He pulled me aside afterwards and he said, "I just wanna tell you, you didn't do this alone. Even if you did You are not on a team of one.
You are on a team of others, and you need to give credit to the entire team. Look, I know that you did the most of the work here, but you showing up at a meeting saying, "I, I, I me," does not send leadership signals.
And so my point is give others credit. Say we instead of me. Be clear about the evidence.
Talk about who benefited and how. And this matters because in a world where value is what organizations care about, if you cannot articulate your value, in my opinion- ... you are at risk. Why would an organization keep you if they don't know your value? And it's not their job to know your value.
It is your job to be able to articulate it. Look, we often wish that our managers... we go back and we tell our managers, and we hope that they're telling other people. You hope. Don't put that hope in them. It's just like your career. Do not put the future of your career and your development in somebody else's hands.
You have to take ownership for your development. You have to take ownership for your value and making sure it's articulated. And I think that's- These are the problems that we solved. Here's how we solved them. Here's the results, and here's h- where the value comes from.
Bart Egnal: I think that's so accurate, and I think it's become even more important now when what value is changing so dramatically.
So it's so critical that what you have defined as value and need for the organization, that others are made aware of that because they may not see it that way yet.
Keith Keating: Yes.
Bart Egnal: So it's not just, oh the organiz- we need to be doing this, and by the way, we have tackled it, and here's the impact it's made.
So I think
Keith Keating: it's- And here what happens if you don't do that. This- ... my story. 10, maybe 15 years ago, I am with a new stakeholder. I'd been there- Okay ... and in Hong Kong, HSBC, and I'd been there about 90 days. And we were just building up a relationship, and I invited him to a meeting, and it was me reporting out on everything that we had done from what my perspective was from value.
And we were probably three minutes in and he says, hold on. It- am I gonna have to sit here and listen to this- ... the next 25 minutes?" And I said what do you mean?" And he goes, "This is just you talking about what's important to you." I said I don't understand what you mean."
And he said, "You haven't talked to me. You don't know if this is important to me, if this is what I'm focused on. This is everything that you're focused on." "So you're just coming to report out to me rather than making it relevant for me." And he got up and left. And that's, that says it all. It was a hard lesson, but it was a, a fantastic lesson that he's absolutely right.
It was all about me.
Here's what I, here's what I did, we did. Instead of, "What do you need, and are we helping you solve your problems?"
Bart Egnal: Which goes right back to that idea of go to your stakeholders, understand what value is to them.
Keith Keating: Exactly.
Bart Egnal: Keith, this has been a great conversation. I think at a time when people feel unsettled, the big takeaways I'm getting from our discussion are first and foremost that y- there's a reason for that.
The definition of value is changing rapidly.
And you need to be aware of that. But that comes with great opportunity, the opportunity to really understand what value is today in your company, in your organization, to the people, the customers that you support. And secondly, to become someone who creates value in ways that are impactful and ultimately celebrated and recognized.
And third, it's going to take this learning mindset that you have. You cannot simply sit still. You are going to have to learn what value is, learn how to create it, learn how to promote it. But by doing so, there's tremendous opportunity for rewarding, energizing work.
Keith Keating: You have to keep learning.
We, i- it's no longer an option at this point. I feel like there was a time period- ... where maybe it was, because change happened much slower. But change truly is happening faster than ever, and the only way to keep pace with change is to keep learning. Our careers are like nonstop conveyor belts.
You've got to keep moving and learning no matter what stage- ... of your career that you're in.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, and what you said earlier really stuck with me, where you said, "As fast as you feel change is happening now, this is the slowest pace of change that you will experience in the future."
Keith Keating: Spot on.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. Keith, this has been a great conversation.
If people want to learn more, if they want to have you as a keynote speaker, if they want to follow you, where can they go? What should they read?
Keith Keating: Check out keithkeating.com. Very easy. You can find me on LinkedIn. I have a couple of books out there. Probably the most relevant to this conversation is Hidden Value: How to Reveal the Impact of Organizational Learning.
I think with that, it's important that leaders listening recognize that we talk about a learning organization. I'm not talking about what your L&D function is doing that is supportive of a learning organization, that every single leader must be contributing to the learning organization. So if you have LinkedIn Learning, you can check out my course- on organizational learning.
Bart Egnal: Thanks so much for joining. We'll link to-- put the links to those things in your book in the notes, and I appreciate you coming on the Inspired podcast. I felt this was a step for me on the conveyor belt- ... to mix metaphors. And it's great to be collaborating with you at BDO as well.
Thanks, Keith.
Keith Keating: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire Podcast and the conversation that I had with our guest. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.
I love the comments, appreciate the reviews, and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It's really how word of mouth has spread the Inspire Podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned. We'll be back in two weeks with another inspiring conversation.
Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire
