What Every Leader Needs to Know about Challenging Conversations with Sandra Bekas

Every leader knows how to have conversations. Far fewer know how to lead them.

In this episode, Bart Egnal speaks with Sandra Bekas, Senior Learning and Development Manager at The Humphrey Group, about why conversations have become one of the most important leadership skills in today's workplace and how THG helps leaders prepare for and excel in these critical communication moments. Drawing on her background in language, rhetoric, cognitive science, and leadership development, Sandra shares insights into why conversations are where influence happens and why those moments have become more complex than ever.

Sandra explains why conversations have become more frequent, more candid, and often more challenging as employees increasingly expect leaders to be more present, more transparent, and more accessible than ever before. She discusses the difference between routine and high-stakes conversations, why framing a conversation is critical to creating clarity and trust, and how leaders can guide discussions without becoming overly directive.

The conversation also explores practical tools from The Humphrey Group's The Art of Conversation program, including the ARC framework (Acknowledge, Refocus, Catalyze) for getting derailed conversations back on track. Whether you're navigating everyday discussions or pivotal leadership moments, this episode offers practical tools for communicating with greater confidence, clarity, and influence.

Show Notes:

00:58 Introducing Sandra Bekas
01:41 Introducing the topic of conversations
02:37 What led you to this role?
02:50 Love of language
03:14 Thinking and language and emotion and how that shapes reality
03:37 Moving to Japan
04:14 Japanese different language structure
04:22 Maybe trim/cut this section?
05:52 Moved back to Canada - Canadian publishing
06:15 Majority of career in instructional design...
06:35 Joining HG
07:26 How have conversations reached this inflection point?
08:00 Post-COVID interactions
08:24 In-person and digital accessibility
09:10 Leadership conversations are now more fraught
10:18 COVID level-set us
10:45 Insert: the three A's
12:47 What is the new THG program?
13:14 The Art of Conversation program
13:25 The ability to dynamically influence others
13:49 Routine conversations vs. high-stakes conversations
14:15 Corporate conversations where you want to move the needle
14:43 How you present in the moment
15:01 How to exert your influence
15:42 What is framing and why is it important?
16:01 What is the purpose of this conversation?
16:33 Example: giving a poor performance review
17:44 Example: letting down people who didn't get the promotion
20:01 Summarizing
20:48 Introducing clarity in a meeting
21:22 Bart presents a challenging example of a situation that is hard to summarize
23:36 Getting derailed conversations back on track
24:56 A.R.C.
26:06 A: acknowledge
26:17 R: refocus
26:28 C: catalyzing question
30:16 You cannot script these moments
31:04 You can still be authentic when using these tools!
32:26 Where can people find out more?

Sandra Bekas: It is about that dynamic influence and about that intentionality when you're going into conversations and how you're approaching them. . Because you cannot script these conversations. And a lot of times, even if you do come in with a plan, that plan will get derailed. Right. So it's about navigating those moments.

Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal, president and CEO of The Humphrey Group. And if you've ever asked yourself, how can you develop an authentic leadership presence? Or how can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word?

Well, then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life

Bart Egnal: So my guest on today's episode is Sandra Bekas, and Sandra is the senior manager of learning and [00:01:00] development at The Humphrey Group. And Sandra, I think it's fair to say this title does not do justice to the work that you do at The Humphrey Group. You have, , had a huge impact as part of our product team of upgrading the experience, , of going through our programs.

You've created new programs. , and nor does it speak to your incredible ability to plan Disney trips or understand the intricacies of, , great Apple television shows. , some of these topics we will discuss today, but let me just formally say welcome to the Inspire Podcast.

Sandra Bekas: Well, thanks so much, Bart.

It's such a pleasure to be here, and thank you 'cause I'm very passionate about the work that I do.

Bart Egnal: You are, you are, and you've made, you've made a real impact in the area of talking to our clients, understanding what the emerging needs in leadership communication are, and then creating programs that build the skills and capabilities our, our clients want to, , communicate and inspire today.

And one of those needs is the one we're here to talk about, which is conversations. I think it's fair to say, you know, I started my career in The Humphrey Group as a [00:02:00] speech writer in, in a time when communication was very formal, very scripted, and over the course of the, , I don't want to date myself here, I'm starting to get older, but the, , multiple decades I've been in this business, every year communication becomes faster, more rapid, and less, , less formal.

And, and with that, the conversation has truly emerged as, , kind of a crucible for leadership, and I know it's, it's one that leaders want to tackle. So we're, we're gonna dive into why leadership really does occur one conversation at a time and the program that you've helped create. But let's start with you.

Let's talk about you for a bit. Tell us about your background and what led you to this role and to this point in time.

Sandra Bekas: You know, upon reflection, I think my route feels relatively straightforward, but it was a little circuitous. But at the base of it, it really started with a love of language, and so that's really driven me throughout my entire career.

And so with that, you know, love of language and [00:03:00] how it can either, you know, bring clarity or create chaos, I studied English at a graduate level at the university and, um, focused primarily- On rhetoric and cognitive science. So in layman's terms, I was really looking at the intersection between thinking and language and emotion.

. And seeing how they created our reality and they shaped our understanding of reality and how we perceived things. And so with that focus and a s- really distinct love of metaphor, 'cause that's actually- where I f- primarily focused as well, that kind of led me to moving to Japan, where, you know, I

Bart Egnal: got to- And, and how did that lead you to Japan?

I mean, that's That, when you said, "This le- this led me to," that was not gonna be my next guess at what came after.

Sandra Bekas: Um-

Bart Egnal: So why Japan?

Sandra Bekas: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, I, I'm c- I come from immigrant parents who st- who struggled with, you know, the English language. . And this has led to a very It's always just been something that I, [00:04:00] I've really dived into and really delved into.

What is language? . And why do we ascribe the meaning that we do to words? And, and how do metaphors work? And, you know, why is up always positive and down always negative? So these are the types of questions. What I noticed about Japanese is that they completely structure their language differently. .

But I was primarily interested, again, in metaphor, and when I looked at the Japanese language, metaphor is very much embedded in the actual words, like in the kanji that they use. And so anyway, it was just a really exciting thing for me to explore.

Bart Egnal: And so what did you do when you went to Japan?

Sandra Bekas: , so I s- I worked primarily in a corporate setting, and I was working with business leaders, and I was helping them refine their communications.

. So what I was doing is I was spending one-on-one sessions. We were working on presentation skills and communication skills, and we were looking at, you [00:05:00] know, how to pitch a product, how to pitch an idea. And so a lot of this wasn't just in the language that they were using. . Because I had a lot of high-level English speakers, and this, these, you know, ambassadors and, you know, CEOs and-

corporate leaders. So what we were doing, we were also looking at cadence and pitch and body language, and even just slowing down the tempo and introducing pauses was helping with their ability to control the, you know, the English language. And-

Bart Egnal: So a lot of the things we work with cl- our clients then-

Sandra Bekas: Yes

Bart Egnal: when

Sandra Bekas: Yeah. And it was a really exciting time to be there. So it also helped It was, again, it was a really It was probably one of a, a, a pivotal moment in my life because I was doing something I really loved to do. When I came back to Canada, I've worked in the Canadian publishing space.

Sandra Bekas: And that was also really interesting. Again, it was a [00:06:00] different dive into language. Again, language being used with intention. I worked with some amazing, amazing Canadian authors. After that, I sp- I've spent the majority, and I'm roughly the same age as you, Bart, so I've spent the majority of my career in- Like we're 25,

Bart Egnal: right?

You know, this is- wise beyond our years.

Sandra Bekas: Exactly. 25 plus. So I spent the majority of my career in instructional design.

Sandra Bekas: And, you know, with that, this path has led me eventually to the Humphrey Group. And h- honestly, to say this and, and not to sound cheesy, but it really does feel like coming home because I am bringing together so many different threads-

of my life experience and my career experience. And so I've really found myself somewhere where it's exciting for me. The work is extremely exciting and it's- very fulfilling. And I feel And the reason it's exciting and fulfilling is I feel like I'm making a significant Like, I'm [00:07:00] making a contribution, a meaningful- contribution.

Bart Egnal: Well, and you are. And I think, you know, one, one of the things when I look at this year, our clients are taking all these new programs that you've had a huge hand in developing, like our newly communication program, like our Executive Edge program, and our Art of Conversations program. So I know this, you know, one of the things that the Humphrey Group we really believe in is, is listening to our clients, understanding the market, understanding where their leadership communication needs are coming, and then responding to that, not just kind of concocting something in the ivory tower.

So let- let's talk about that emerging need on conversations. What did you see, what did you learn that led you and the product team to say leaders today are looking at conversations as increasingly critical battleground, for lack of a better term, for leadership?

Sandra Bekas: Yeah, so lately the landscape has changed again.

We, we went through a massive change when COVID hit, and it moved into a digital space. And when we moved into that digital space, you saw this [00:08:00] movement where leaders really had to become available through email, through vi- voice chats, through voice meetings. And now what you're noticing post post-COVID is that we're moving

That the, the landscape is changing again. People became very comfortable with having that accessibility to leaders, having that availability, and having that authenticity that COVID really brought out from, from leadership. And so what you're seeing is that now not only do we have the digital medium that leaders need to navigate, but they're also doing the in-person medium as well, and they need to be accessible across absolutely every single facet.

So you're seeing leaders who need to be very strong in their written and, you know, presentation skills, but also in their ability to make those one-on-one connections because they're being asked to make those one-on-one connections- more regularly- Yeah and more authentically.

Bart Egnal: I think that's totally, totally true.

The demands on leaders and the pressures on leaders have grown. A- and I also think, and I [00:09:00] know we've spoken about this, that the nature and tenor of those connections and conversations has become more fraught in, , in many cases. I think, you know, COVID, again, it kind of, , reformed a lot of the norms around how we interact and, you know, it led to heightened emotions and stress.

And, and I think there's been a through line where people continue to be willing, as, as I see working with my senior clients, willing to say things to people that were surprisingly stark, you know. And you say, "Wow," you know, , y- 10 years ago you wouldn't have had this conversation. Y- you know, just to sum a, a couple examples where, you know, I'll have a, a, a very senior executive and their direct report will just say, "You are not supporting me.

You know, I am, I am thinking of leaving." Like, this would be a conversation you would never, never hear before. I've had another one where, um, clients will, you know, when we talk about, you know, advancement, they'll say, "Look, I, I just think this company" You know, they'll say this to their leader, "Hey, this isn't you, but you need to know, [00:10:00] 'cause you're, the company's committed to authenticity, that the policies around advancement are not backed up by how people are promoted."

And, and so these are just, , I think the kind of frankness of what's happening, and as you said, the frequency and the expectations have risen. Does that align- Absolutely with what you saw when you were interviewing clients about this need?

Sandra Bekas: Oh, absolutely. And you know, you, we, we bring up COVID and I know it's kind of, at this point, you know, we wanna get past it, but COVID level set.

COVID absolutely level set. It brought us all down to the same, same spot- in our shared experience, and that was a lot of frustration and a lot of heightened emotions, and it did, um, reshape the way that we approach communication and the way that we approach, like, levels and how we approach leadership.

Bart Egnal: You, you've kind of defined the demands that leaders be great in conversations through this concept of the three A's. What are the three A's, and what do they look like for leaders today?

Sandra Bekas: The three A's are the, [00:11:00] you know, demands on availability and accessibility and authenticity. And so what that means is availability.

Now, again, I mentioned post-COVID, we see this demand for having leaders who are going to respond to chat messages and emails and that are more reactive and present. You know, we, we don't have people who are gonna be waiting around for town halls anymore- and that are gonna be waiting for these big moments.

Leaders are expected to be more present. Right. And by being more present, they're also expected to be more authentic. We aren't waiting for those big messages anymore- or those, you know, perfectly framed, , moments. What we are, what we are looking for is the realness and the groundedness in the conversation.

. So we want to hear, "This is why we're doing something. This is the context. I might have bad news to share, but that's okay. We're going to get through it." . And [00:12:00] people want to know where they stand, and so it's that level of authenticity and realness- that they're expecting, and that comes through conversations.

Um, and then there is the accessibility piece. I mean, leaders need to be accessible on all the platforms. . They need to be accessible on your team's channel or your Slack channel. They're going to be responding to emails, and they need to, you know, be on social media. So it's that component where leaders need to navigate multiple mediums and all at the same time and to really get ahead and, you know, up on the skill set, um, for, you know, a digital and in-person age.

Bart Egnal: Yeah, it's, it's well said. I mean, the demands have never been higher, and, , the platforms where they have to have these conversations are multiplying. So people listening may be wondering, "All right, I, I have to have more of these conversations. I want to be better. I want to be more effective as a leader."

So let, let's, obviously we can't take the program right here, but let's give people a sneak peek into what they need [00:13:00] to think about and what they can start doing to be more effective. So what's the name of the program, and overall, like, what is the message you would deliver to anyone listening about conversations and, , how they can be successful in them?

Sandra Bekas: So the name of the program is The Art of Conversation, and the reason that it's named this is because we're really looking at those dynamic and in-the-moment, , conversations that you can have with people. So we're not talking about necessarily the preparation piece- or presentations. We're talking about the ability to dynamically influence others in the moment.

So what are the techniques and the tools that you can lean into to help you navigate those moments? . So the way that the program is structured, because we're talking about conversations as a whole, and that's a huge topic. Um, but what it really pares down to is this: you have routine conversations, and you have high-stakes conversations.

And both of these conversations, and we're talking a, in a, in a corporate sense, in a work sense, [00:14:00] where you want to move the needle. You want to accomplish something. You want to achieve something-

Bart Egnal: Okay

Sandra Bekas: um, at the end of this conversation. So we're not talking water cooler conversations. . You don't need to necessarily prep for those unless you're trying to make, you know, a personal impact.

We're talking about corporate conversations where you want to move the needle. So could be routine, could be a high-stakes conversation, and you want to exert your influence to lead that conversation. And so the way that our program is built, the first half of the program is teaching you those foundational, um, skills.

. So we are looking at how you prepare for a conversation.

Bart Egnal: .

Sandra Bekas: How y- how are you listening? How are you showing up? How are you responding in the moment? What is your body language saying when you're giving a message? Is it in line with, you know, the message that you're communicating? And so we're looking at those, those foundational aspects.

For the second half of the program, [00:15:00] we're really looking at how you exert your influence. . And so that means, what do you do when the conversation doesn't go the way that you planned it to go? And what happens when emotions show up?

Bart Egnal: Right.

Sandra Bekas: Or you have someone who's, you know, there's a clash or a personality clash or s- you know, someone who's overtaking the conversation.

How do you navigate those moments?

Bart Egnal: And I know at the heart of everything we do are, are tools and frameworks. So let, let's go through, like, let's give people listening some tools right? And I think we've talked about three. We've talked about one around framing the conversation, one around summarizing the conversation, and one around redirecting a derailed conversation.

So let's start with framing. What is it? Why is it important?

Sandra Bekas: , absolutely. So framing a conversation is, is one of the key things that you can do. It's a really simple tool that you can immediately apply, and that's about being more intentional in your conversation. So [00:16:00] framing is about saying what the purpose, what the intention is for that conversation that we're entering into out loud.

. And this is happening before things get confusing, before things get emotional. It's just level-setting where we are and what we want to what the outcome we're expecting from this conversation is.

Bart Egnal: Okay, so give me an example. Let's take a high-stakes conversation someone's preparing for. What does framing sound like, and what does it achieve?

Sandra Bekas: Okay, so s- let's say What's a high-stakes conversation? An emotional conversation might be you're giving somebody a poor performance review.

Bart Egnal: Okay.

Sandra Bekas: And so you'd say, "Hey, we're meeting here today to talk about your performance at the company. W- we can both expect that this conversation is gonna be quite challenging today.

However, it's my intention that we're gonna find a path forward where we are both gonna have a really successful performance review the next time around."

Bart Egnal: . So you're, you're signaling right up [00:17:00] front to the other person that there are, there is gonna be emotion. You're acknowledging that, but there is a positive path through it.

Sandra Bekas: Yeah. You're saying You're immediately So as a leader, you know, we do have to safeguard the emotions of, you know, the people that we work with. . And so immediately what you are doing is you're, you're setting the context and you're saying, "Hey, this isn't g- this is, this isn't a great performance review.

You know it's not gonna be a great performance review, but my it's not my intention to fire you." . "It's my intention that we're gonna work through this, and we're gonna find a path forward, and we're gonna find a solution to make this, you know, a s-

Bart Egnal: Right

Sandra Bekas: a success." So.

Bart Egnal: So let me give you another one.

Okay, so that's a good example. Let's take another scenario. I have a CEO. I have two candidates vying for an EVP position. I can only pick one. I've made my choice. Now I have to meet with the candidate who did not get the job. What would f- successful framing l- sound and look like with [00:18:00] that candidate?

Sandra Bekas: All right, so you're going to enter into this conversation, and you have to deliver some bad news.

But that's okay because that's, that's something that we expect as a leader. You're going to have to deliver the bad news.

Bart Egnal: .

Sandra Bekas: But how are you framing this? So it's not just about saying, "Hey, sorry you didn't get the job," and, you know, leading them out the door. It's about setting that framing as a leader.

Mm. And what you want to do is you're going to be bringing in a path forward for them. It's not necessarily for you together. Right, 'cause I want them to

Bart Egnal: stay on. I don't want to lose them. That's my concern as the CEO. I don't want to lose that person who didn't get the job.

Sandra Bekas: Right. And so what it could look like is they are your audience.

What is the best-- What is-- What would they expect to hear from this conversation- Mm that's going to be successful for them but also successful for you in delivering this message?

Bart Egnal: And so what- Yeah, well, well, well, maybe if I could jump in on that. To your point, what would be successful for me is I want to keep them, and I want to keep them [00:19:00] engaged And what will be successful for them is if they get something out of the process, right?

That- Absolutely they've learned something even though they didn't get the job.

Sandra Bekas: Yeah, absolutely. So what they might, you know, what they could take out of it is, what do we want if we don't have a successful interview? We want some really good feedback-

Bart Egnal:

Sandra Bekas: so that we can take that and immediately apply it.

Um, and so maybe it will be successful the next time. I mean-

Bart Egnal: So maybe I'll take a shot then with that framing. I might say, "Look, we're gonna have a convers- you did not get the position. My goal today, though, is to provide you with really valuable feedback on why, the gaps so that, that you have to fill, and then work on a plan with you over the next so that we can support you so that when you apply next time you're more successful."

Is, is that what you're getting at?

Sandra Bekas: Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm getting at.

Bart Egnal: Okay. So I, I like this framing tool. So this is, as a leader you gotta start with the frame, and really that it's not just what you're trying to achieve but thinking about your outcome, their outcome together.

What The second tool that you talked about, I [00:20:00] guess this, the framing's the front end. The second tool you talked about is summarizing. Tell me what that is and how to go about incorporating this tool into your conversations.

Sandra Bekas: Summarizing sounds simple.

Bart Egnal: Yeah, it's easy, just like, "Let me wrap up, , tell you everything you said."

I can use GPT to do it now.

Sandra Bekas: Absolutely, but it actually requires deep listening skills in the moment. Okay. And so you're gonna see this, like, the, the best example of this is when you have a team with, like, interdepartmental, and you're pulling together, you know, like, say, like, finance and, um, you know, product and different, different elements, and you're bringing them all together.

And when you bring in a group like that, you're going to have different motivations, different- agendas, different concerns that are coming into play during that conversation. So if you really wanna be a super effective leader during that conversation, what you wanna do is you wanna introduce clarity, and by being able to pull all the different threads together and summarize [00:21:00] it plainly, you're gonna be able to drive the outcome or drive the objective of that conversation more clearly.

Bart Egnal: . So when, when you summarize, I mean, that, that sounds great in theory, particularly in large, disparate, in groups with disparate opinions. But what if you disagree? What if you have, you know, three people who agree wi- you agree with, two people you don't, and two who are your, like, neutral? Are, are you meant to

Are you simply summarizing what they've all said, or are you trying to wrap? Like h- tell, tell me how we should think about this tool.

Sandra Bekas: Yeah, absolutely. So you, you are summarizing. You're making clear. You're making clear- Okay where the block still exists- so if there is a block. Um, and so what that might look like is, "Okay, let me check in and see if I'm tracking this correctly.

You're concerned about timing. You know, there is another concern about budget. We're hearing that we're all aligned on the same outcome- But we're not aligned on the approach.

Bart Egnal: I see. Is that

Sandra Bekas: [00:22:00] a

Bart Egnal: fair- So it's not that you're kind of mesh- melding everyone into a, you know, monotheistic viewpoint. You're, you're really summarizing the positions that you've heard from that person or that group and, and even where there's disagreement.

Is that right?

Sandra Bekas: Absolutely. And it's t- and it's b- about surfacing- and bringing clarity to where everyone- stands. Um, and when you have that clarity, you kind of make that You, you provide the ability to move forward because you're clearing the blockages- Right out of the way.

Bart Egnal: A- and what I'm You know, when I first heard this tool, I thought, "Oh, yeah, we've got framing at the front, summarizing at the back."

But I'm hearing in what you're saying that the summarization, this intention around summarizing i- is a tool that you use throughout the conversation. Is that fair?

Sandra Bekas: You can. Whenever, whenever you find Again, it's like we're providing tools and techniques that you can whip out from your toolbox when the need arises.

. And so that's when you see [00:23:00] that there are moments when clarity is needed, and that's all three of these tools actually. . It's when clarity is needed, you can lean into the tool, into the technique, and apply it so that you can make those moments of clarity for- the participants in the conversation.

Bart Egnal: And I like the way you described it as by providing that clarity, you can identify the blocks, you can identify the points of disagreement, but you can also identify where y- there is alignment w- already, and so you can kind of shunt those aside and then refocus everyone. Okay, so let's go to your third t- the third tool.

I know we're, we're just tackling three tools here, , but there are more in the program itself. So this is one that you have created to help people, , get a derailed conversation back on track. And I think, you know, if there's one thing I think about my clients, there, there are a lot of derailed conversations this way, you know.

I, I, I'll just share one example. You know, I have a client, , she's a CIO, and she said, "You know, I went in to have [00:24:00] one conversation with, you know, my direct report about, you know, the upcoming budget and, you know, w- how much we were going to invest in, in, , you know, in AI and in, in our capital program, and suddenly I found myself in the midst of a career conversation where the person was confessing to me that they felt unfulfilled by the work and by the role."

And I thought, "Oh my gosh, you know, , am I going to lose this person who I really want?" So the, I, I do think going back to what you talk about with the demands of availability and authenticity, people feel that, you know, eh, whenever they get time, and, and maybe rightly so, they're going to take advantage of it.

So tell me how leaders should think about these derailed conversations. Why do they happen, and then what should they do about them?

Sandra Bekas: Yeah, absolutely. And, and it happens a lot, and it happens for a lot of reasons. But we have a really strong tool for redirecting a conversation back on track, um, that I've named ARC.

And so I'll, I'll go through the acronym and [00:25:00] what it stands for, but, you know, the reasons that conversations really derail is, you know, like you, you mentioned, someone gets emotional, someone gets passionate, and someone- you know, goes off and, and is worried about something that happened in a past project or whatever.

Or, you know, sometimes you just get Bob who wants to tell you a story about his dog, right? Right. And so y- y- you want to go through this tool, and how you apply this tool is you are

Bart Egnal: trying to- So it's called ARC. Is that A-R, A-R-C?

Sandra Bekas: A-R-C.

Bart Egnal: So it's an acronym.

Sandra Bekas: Yes. And the way that we apply the tool, and the reason we apply the tool, is because if you want to get the conversation back on track, you're going to have to shut down Bob.

Bart Egnal: .

Sandra Bekas: And you want to shut down Bob in a way that you are going to be maintaining the relationship and maintaining the trust because if you come- in too strong and you shut him down hard, not only are you going to lose his trust, but you're going to lose trust from the other individuals- Right who might be [00:26:00] part of that conversation.

So the way that we w- appro- approach this with ARC is that the first thing you do is you're acknowledging. . You're acknowledging what the other person has contributed, and so in this case it'd be like, "Bob, that's a really great story. Thanks so much for sharing it." And then you refocus. That's the R.

Bart Egnal: .

Sandra Bekas: But I wanna bring us back to why we're here today, and that's to focus on our plan for Q2. And then you go into C, and this is where the magic happens, because this is a catalyzing question. So now you're putting your foot on the pedal. You're, you're adding the gas, and you're motivating. You're moving people into action.

So what that looks like is you're bringing in a strategic question, and it could be something like, "Given what we've discussed so far, who's the best person to take the lead on X?"

Bart Egnal: . So it really gets people thinking. It's not just that you're talking over them. Absolutely. You're putting it back to them and engaging them.

Sandra Bekas: Yes. [00:27:00] And you're driving it, driving it towards the outcome that you had framed initially at the beginning of the conversation.

Bart Egnal: So I, I like the tool. So here's my question for you, is, you know, like, the Bob example's a great one of where you want to use the tool. Like, Bob is derailing your agenda. He's taking it totally off on a tangent that is not relevant, and this is the time to use the tool.

L- let's look at my other example, though, of the CIO. You know, what if that person thinks, "This is a conversation I need to have"? Like, h- what is the judgment that you would advise clients to use, and when and when not to use that tool?

Sandra Bekas: The way that this conversation could start would be acknowledging that this is an important conversation to have.

. And so they could say something like, "I see that this is a very important conversation for us to have." And then, then if you feel, and you have to go on your instincts as a leader- if you feel that this is a conversation that happen, has to happen [00:28:00] immediately, then I would switch tracks of the conversation- Right

and have that conversation. But if you feel that you can schedule time where you can recollect- Mm because you need to collect your own thoughts- Right and you need to approach this conversation with intention and with clarity and with your own emotional- Y- you know, response and you'll have

Bart Egnal: to frame that conversation, right?

That's a completely different conversation.

Sandra Bekas: Absolutely. And so what you can do is you can put it off or refocus the conversation, and you can say, "How about we schedule some time? Do you have ti- availability this afternoon? Can we meet about this tomorrow morning, and then we can have dedicated time to work through this together?

Right now during this meeting, I'd still like to come back to- what we were discussing earlier. How does that land with you?"

Bart Egnal: Yeah, or maybe there's even a middle ground if you're not sure. You could acknowledge, say, "Wow, you know, I'm hearing this. It's obviously you're going through some challenging times, and I'm glad you shared it with me because our working [00:29:00] relationship is really critical."

And then you could redirect. You could say, "Look, I know we came to this meeting to talk about something completely different, right? Absolutely different." But then you could go to the catalyzing question. You could say, "I want your perspective. Are we better off having this conversation now, or are we better off putting it aside when we can both be- You know, we're kind of ready and emotionally prepared.

So, so that Could that be a middle ground, where you, the catalyzing question is actually putting it to them on whether they're ready?

Sandra Bekas: No, absolutely. You're, like, a master of the tool already.

Bart Egnal: Well, and I think, you know, these three potential paths really speak to the fact of the title of the program, The Art, The Art of Conversations, right?

Because there is no fixed playbook, right? It really demands on this combini- it really demands of leaders a combination of judgment, , self-awareness, and capability, right? And so I think that's, that's what's so critical. That's what I'm taking away [00:30:00] from this discussion, that there, there isn't a simple playbook that we can give you, but you're going to be in these conversations more than ever, and you need, you need to understand how to think about them, and you need to understand how to handle them, , with, with the toolkit that's available to you.

Sandra Bekas: That's a great way to frame it, and it is about that dynamic influence and about that intentionality when you're going into conversations and how you're approaching them. . Because you cannot script these conversations, and a lot of times, even if you do come in with a plan, that plan will get derailed.

Right. So it's about navigating those moments.

Bart Egnal: Yeah, I'm reminded of that, that, , saying, I don't, I don't know f- who it was, but, um, "No plan survives contact with the enemy." I feel like, you know, no, no con- no scripted conversation survives reality. So you, you really do need this more dynamic awareness of what's happening in, in the moments that you're in, and, and, , I'm glad that we've created a program that can equip people with these tools.

Sandra Bekas: Yeah, and, and if I could say one more thing, I [00:31:00] feel like it's really important to understand that even though we have these tools and techniques and frameworks- that can give us some structure on the approach, it doesn't take away from your ability to be spontaneous or to engage in a way that is authentic.

Mm. Because just I always, you know, go back to what, you know, my teachers used to say when I was in school, and that was, you know, like, this won't apply to everybody. This is in English. And- but, you know, the iambic pentameter, it feels so structured, and, you know, poets had to write within this very, very, you know, incredible structure.

And it feels restrictive, but it's actually incredibly freeing- Mm because when you apply a structure, it actually frees up other aspects. You can actually You don't have to be worried about the way that you're gonna respond or- necessarily if you have the techniques or the tools. You already have something in place that you can lean into, and it frees up your capability to respond in a way that is authentic to you when- Right

you know that you don't need to come up with something on the spot, or you might feel [00:32:00] overwhelmed- Right by a situation that's occurring.

Bart Egnal: Yeah, because you've framed it in advance. You know your intention. You know the tools, and you're able to, to use them wherever it goes. And, , yeah, that, that's a great way to conclude, um, you know, why leadership happens one conversation at a time.

And I think there, there's a reason that clients are under more pressure to have these conversations, and I'm glad that we can provide today in this conversation a few tools that they can put to use right away. I- if clients want to know more and they want to What, what do you recommend they read? What resources would you suggest, ours or otherwise, that they access?

Sandra Bekas: Oh, well, I mean, I am I feel like a great complimentary program to this is our Speaking As A Leader program, where we have dynamic influence with the art of conversation. You have that more structured approach where you know how to clarify your thoughts and you know how to approach your communication with Speaking As A Leader.

So that, those two are a, a powerhouse if you [00:33:00] have both of these together. When it comes to just to the art of influence- and the art of conversation, I'm always going to go back. I, I am a traditionalist by nature. I'm going to always go back to, like, the Greek philosophers. I'm going to go back to Aristotle.

. I'm going to go back to, you know, pathos, logos, ethos, and, you know, how to really understand the art of influence, um, from, you know, from the root, um- It never

Bart Egnal: gets old.

Sandra Bekas: It doesn't. It doesn't. And it's just about, you know, I, I think if anything, it's understanding your audience and any- anything that you can pick up on understanding your audience.

We have a lot on that- We do, yeah as well with the Humphrey Group. So being able to understand your audience is already going to get you halfway there.

Bart Egnal: Well, Sandra, this has definitely gotten us halfway there, and I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and all the work that you've done to create the art of conversation.

Thanks for your time.

Sandra Bekas: Thanks so much for having me, Bart. It was a pleasure.[00:34:00]

Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspired Podcast and the conversation that I had, , with our guest. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.

I love the comments, appreciate the reviews, and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It's really how word of mouth has spread the Inspired Podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned. We'll be back in two weeks with another inspiring conversation.

Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and [00:35:00] inspire