What Really Drives Us with Stephen de Groot
What really motivates us? And why can some environments bring out the best in us while others slowly drain our energy?
In this episode, Bart speaks with Stephen de Groot about his remarkable career journey, from working with prisoners to advising physicians, leaders, and other high performers, and what those experiences have taught him about human motivation.
Stephen discusses the difference between motivation and inspiration, and why so few of us truly understand what drives and energizes us. He introduces his “CORE 4”: needs, values, goals, and strengths, and explains how paying attention to the moments when we feel most alive and fulfilled can reveal what matters most to us. With that understanding, we can intentionally create more of those conditions in our work and lives or recognize when an environment is no longer right for us.
The conversation then turns to leadership. Stephen shares how leaders can uncover what motivates the people they lead, create the conditions for them to perform at their best, and recognize why the same approach will not inspire everyone.
Filled with practical insights and stories from Stephen’s own journey, this episode offers a fresh perspective on human motivation, meaningful work and what it really takes to inspire ourselves and others.
Check out Stephen's book, Getting to Better.
Show Notes:
01:11 Introducing Stephen
02:09 What inspiration and motivation mean
02:51 I get excited easily, I don't often get inspired easily
04:13 Life is already there, you just need to tune into it
05:43 Bart asks Stephen for his career/personal story
06:06 Growing up a twin and being attuned to people's emotions
06:42 Started with working with people who were unmotivated
07:01 Working with gang members in prisons
07:17 All people are motivated... but are they motivated in the way we want them to be?
08:06 "Safe, significant and situated"
10:39 Using magic tricks to connect
13:02 The three "S"s and the "CORE 4"
16:10 Outdated theories are still used in the corporate world
16:43 What does it mean to be "unmotivated"?
17:17 What needs were being met?
17:35 Great moments don't happen by accident
19:31 Happiness is fleeting: inspiration and meaning aren't
21:30 How do you go about finding out your "CORE 4"
23:31 Start with your personal life
23:50 Four questions to ask
23:55 Q: What needs are being met right now?
24:28 Q: What values are being aligned?
24:42 Q: What goals are being met?
24:54 Q: What strengths of mine are being leveraged right now?
27:12 What frustration and anger tell us
28:28 How does this apply to leadership development?
29:14 Best to approach it when things are going well
29:29 What part of the work do you like the most?
29:58 We're products of our environments and relationships
30:16 Interviewing for Core Four
33:32 Knowing people's Core Four directly impacts your ability to influence them
34:15 The Three P's
34:51 Promote - Predict - Prevent
35:45 Moral injury
36:42 Bart ties it up with thoughts about how self-awareness ties in
37:10 It's not as much work as you think it is
38:02 Thank yous
38:39 Outro
Show Transcript:
Stephen de Groot: We're motivated a thousand times in our lives probably before the first interview that says, "What motivates you?" You know that interview question, and people are like, "Oh my God, that's such a hard question." But we've been motivated a thousand times before this moment. What we weren't taught to do was to pay attention to what was happening during that moment, what needs were being met, what values were being aligned, what goals were being accomplished, and what strengths were being recognized and leveraged.
And this is the thing I do with a lot of people, from surgeons to F-35 pilots to still kids in care, is have them think about their greatest day
Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal, president and CEO of the Humphrey Group. And if you've ever asked yourself, "How can you develop an authentic leadership presence?"
Or, "How can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word?" Then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life
So my guest on today's episode of the Inspired podcast is Stephen de Groot. Stephen is the author of the recently published Getting to Better. He is the president of Brevia, which does organizational development. He is many other things. I know when we had our- ... our kind of prep call, the as you said to me, the scope of of what you don't do is much shorter than than what you do.
You know- Yeah ... I know you you're a human behavior enthusiast, you're a recovering academic. There's a whole host of things we can use to describe you. So Stephen, welcome to the Inspired podcast.
Stephen de Groot: Thank you very much. I appreciate. Thanks for having me here. And yeah, absolutely. I work in every sector, right?
So it's... I almost have to ask people "What are you interested in? What do you want to know about?" And I'll just talk about, ... talk about that stuff. Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. And that's, I think, why we had this really interesting conversation around what would we talk about. And, what we ca- I know the through line of what you do is the improvement of human performance and, you know- Yeah
having people really thrive. Yeah. And we connected around what inspiration, what motivation means. And, in, in my work and the work that we do at The Humphrey Group, that is at the heart of, our approach to communication. But I think what's really fascinating and what we're gonna talk about today is what are the needs that once you've met them lead to being inspired?
And you- Yeah ... you've done a lot of work in that. So we're gonna dive into maybe I just ask you to lead out with your definition of inspiration, and then we can wind the clock back a bit into what's led you into this work.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. Okay, cool. I, look rather than definition, I think a lot of the things like motivation I think motivation and inspiration probably have been used interchangeably- but may not be the same thing to some people. I just think that inspiration... I say to people often I get excited easily. I don't get inspired easily. 'Cause I, I think sometimes- ... people can get confused with the two, and I think inspiration is movement, is like that fulfillment, that deep urge, yeah, to be moved or awed and driven- to do something, so I can see how they get... when you're inspired, you're moved. You're in c- like you're of a deep level of fulfillment, but it's not just fulfillment, 'cause fulfillment can seem like a passive thing, but it's this charge. It's this electrifying, fulfilling movement towards something is what inspiration is to me.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. I completely agree with you. I think, we had this neat discussion ahead of time around this difference between motivation or excitement, as you describe it- yeah. Yeah ... and fulfillment, right, and inspiration. And, we talked about... I'm sure everyone's had that experience of going to a keynote talk, and they're like, "Wow, that was fun."
And then you leave, and that's it. It's it's gone. Dissipates, right? Yeah. Yeah. This... Whereas what you're describing, I like the way you... the language is deeper, right? Yeah. It's it gets to your ethos, your core, and it moves you to something, right? The... I think, inspiration comes from the Latin word inspiro, is to breathe life into.
There you go. Yeah. And so it is that depth that you talk about. And I love the move idea that you articulate, which is really, when you are inspired, you're moved to do something on a much- Yeah ... deeper level.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. And I love that, inspired to bring life. I think life's already there.
Like a lot of people say- ... the old school is light a fire under somebody. And I'm like, what if the fire's already lit, and we just have to- Huh ... like blow breath, and meaning into the embers and light the fire from within side? Like it's already there.
It's just, it's gone out, or it's dimmed. For a lot of people, it's gone out.
Bart Egnal: Do you know what I mean? I think when you look at- Yeah. ... when you look at the, the corporate world, when you look elsewhere, the fire has gone out. But maybe- It has ... to your point, if you're a leader, the embers are there. They just have to blow on them the right way.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. They... it's when people say, "I'm not feeling it," it's not that it's not there. They're just not connected to it. It's not, it's not activated. I often talk about, people talk about all this stuff, like potential and inspiration and stuff, and they say, "It's gotta be unlocked."
And I'm just like, "It's just hiding. It's been there." It gets unlocked once, and then it just hides, right? So you've gotta find it. And I think inspiration is really, it... Like we've got everything inside of us, right? It's all there. And is it touched? Is it ignited? Is it- brought to life, right? Those kinds of things. That's how I, that's how I think about it.
Bart Egnal: Yeah, and I think that's a great lead in to anyone who's in a leadership role or aspires to leadership, is it's in there in your audiences. Yeah. Can you reach it? Can you ignite it? And restart. So-
Stephen de Groot: Can you create conditions where it can reveal itself- so that you can actually know it's there, right?
Bart Egnal: And that's what we'll talk about. Yeah. But let's go back in time. You've had for people who don't know you, for people who wonder what led you to this work, maybe give me the, the Coles Notes of your career and what led you into this that you're doing today.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. I... Thanks. I think I've been working, since I was six years old. I was always concerned about how come people are sad in places where they should be happy, right? I was just like, "
Bart Egnal: Does this make any sense?" Can I ask what prom- what led that? It's rare for, someone at six to say that's an awareness.
Stephen de Groot: I was just highly attuned to people that were unhappy, right? I was a, a- Okay ... identical, an identical twin brother. We had our own cocoon. We were high energy, positive, very loving parents, and to me, I think it was strange, 'cause I had this gift of always having me with me, right?
Imagine having two of you. It's like things were always great, and so I was, early on, I was just attuned to people that were down or upset or stressed- ... about something in a, in an environment they should be doing well in, like at home, at school, around the water table, at arts and crafts in the basement of the church with all the toys and all the food, and I'm like, "Why are people upset?"
So I've always been, pursued that, coached. I worked in child welfare. I... my start got into, working with people who are unmotivated. A big- Okay ... a big piece was, like, teenag- out of control teenagers. Then I moved into gang members violent men in prisons. You wanna talk about difficult to motivate a group, difficult to motivate?
Yeah. But then I started working with leaders. Yeah. Okay. Hold on. We... I can't let that go, 'cause that's interesting to me. Gang members. I used to work in lots of the prisons across Ontario,
Bart Egnal: actually. Yeah. So you say they're not motivated. What did you observe, and why do gang members not have motivation?
Obviously they have motivation to join a gang, to do, to do- Yeah ... crimes.
Stephen de Groot: This is the thing. I think all humans are motivated. So this is the thing. It's like I would rarely say someone's unmotivated. They appear unmotivated.
Bart Egnal: Okay.
Stephen de Groot: It's just they're not motivated at the time for the things we want them to be motivated for.
That's very different, right? And so I think with the gang members, what I learned from them is they weren't feeling what I call the three great states. They weren't feeling safe, they weren't feeling significant and valued, and they weren't feeling- ... clear in their direction, situated. So they didn't reveal...
So if you ask, you know- Yeah ... if you ask me if I'm in, if I don't feel safe with you and you say, "How's it going?" I'm gonna say, "It's fine, and please move on and leave me alone." And if you ask me to do something for you, I'm probably gonna resist or oppose that. So they were motivated, so you just had to connect with, you and I have talked about this briefly, their core four.
What do they really need in this moment? What do they value? What do they really want? Not what we want. What do they want, and what are their strengths? And those to me- ... I call those the core four. So they often- So
Bart Egnal: I imagine that- ... kept those hidden. They kept those hidden
that the, the gang had offered them those three S's, right? Safety, physical and psychological safety. You got it.
Stephen de Groot: Yep.
Bart Egnal: You got it. It offered them... Sorry, what was the second one? My brain is-
Stephen de Groot: Safe, significant, and situated. Yeah. So safe, yeah. So they had a role. Yeah. They had a
Bart Egnal: role to play in the gang, right?
Stephen de Groot: Oh, yeah. So you could get- You're fast, you run. You're smart you work with the money. You know- ... you're big you watch the door, right? And I think the thing that, you know, with the gang members, what I learned from them was, they couldn't get it in their family, couldn't get it in the community- couldn't get it at school, so they gravitated towards a place that provided those. Now the caveat is-
You, in order to get the three great states in a way that is not the best for you, you have to hide your core four. You can't really share your needs, like I I'm scared. You can't share your feelings.
You can't share your values, so there's a trade-off, right? Which is when you c- it comes to motivating people, you can only motivate them if you know their core four.
Bart Egnal: So then- yeah ... so if the gang members, gang leadership learn the core four and we'll come back to it. But okay so you went into prisons.
You started working- Yep ... with populations and this was forming- Yeah ... your views- Yeah ... then on this,
Stephen de Groot: these, these needs. Yeah, and then the, yeah, and then the u- the officers, and then I started working with their bosses, and then all of a sudden it worked really well with employees, and then I was working- with companies and basically it's human stuff. And then I started working with high performers, and I realized that the formula for motivating, we'll use that word now 'cause people understand, or even inspiring for that matter, 'cause I think- ... motivation is more of a byproduct of meaning- Okay
and inspiration, right? And so if you can create the conditions where you can access that fire inside- ... then you can light anyone up. So where I got a lot of reputation in the jails was, like, prisoners and really rough characters were willing to do things with me and for me, and things that people asked them to do- give me an example
Bart Egnal: Tell me a story about what, where you had that kind of success.
Stephen de Groot: D- just getting them down the hallway to group, right? Getting them to interact with a social worker or with their probation officer. And so what was interesting is, they're always expecting, they're always protecting themselves because they've been taken advantage of.
Okay. They've been told 100 times, "Trust me, it's gonna be okay," and it wasn't. And it wasn't, so you can't motivate or inspire somebody if they're closed off, right? So most people who've had difficulty, and put this to an employee or even someone you're in a relationship with. It works with all humans.
The more you've been hurt, m- and the m- higher your lack of trust, the less likely you're going to reveal what's really important to you, what you really need- ... what you value, what you hope for. And so I just created conditions. So one of the things I did, I learned magic right away. So I learned- Yeah.
One of the closest ways to- ... to get to a gang member is ask them if they wanna learn a magic trick. And most of them say yeah, right? So you get really close. You're providing safety. You're providing significance. You're showing them a new trick. You're getting them situated. You're predictable.
And all of a sudden you're chatting, and they start- ... telling you things, like, that they really care about. And if you don't- ... start, get startled, when they say "I really wanna break out of here," and you say- ... "Oh, tell me more about that," versus, "Oh my God, I gotta find somebody" Right
you can maintain that safety for them to say the next thing, which is, "I miss my mom"- ... or, "It's boring around here," or, "I really need to connect." And they started to reveal aspects of themselves, and that's the whole secret- ... is once you create the three great states, people give you access to their core four.
Interesting. And once you see their core four, you get to light that fire that's already been burning from within. So- Yeah ...
Bart Egnal: what you're saying then is that- Senior leaders or people of spiral leadership can learn a lot about how to inspire from how gangs, high performers all o- Yeah ... need h- need the same things really.
Stephen de Groot: You want to hear something cool just off the presses- Yeah. Let's do it ... like you get to share this? I'm actually doing some... So I do, I work in medicine and health and stuff, and I'm doing a presentation at rounds on the comparison between gang members and surgeons. So- Who's tougher to work with?
Yeah. That's what I'm wondering.
The still trying to figure that out. I think, it's, and again- 'Cause surgeons have a reputation, right?
They and they're also in control, and they're also on a pedestal, and they're also, they're the best at their craft and, a lot of people haven't given them feedback.
So they're two very different dynamics. And I think at first people are insulted by this, but when I have the time to explain it, it makes a lot of sense, right? And so I've learned a lot from gang members, and I've... to be human, we're the best of us and we're the worst of us.
And this is the thing I've learned. Humans can be cooperative, engaging, creative, alive, and helpful and friendly, and we can also be very the opposite of that.
Based on the situation we're in and based on who we're with at the time.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So l- you've talked about two concepts w- I think we should just quickly highlight- Okay.
Yeah ... 'cause they're at the core of, the core, pardon the pun, of what we're talking about here. You've got your three S's, your three states, and then you've got your core- Yeah ... four. So walk us- Yeah ... through those two and the interplay between them.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. So the three great states are just conditions we can create where we fee- and they can happen in a relationship.
So- Okay ... safe is physically safe, emotionally safe. Significant means we feel like we matter, we have value- ... we have worth. And situated is I'm clear on why I'm here, and the situation's predictable. I understand your role, my role, those kind. Once humans have those things, we are, we're free to open up and really express ourselves, which is, brings us to the core four.
So according to my work, and you've heard these words before, needs, values, goals, and strengths- ... are operating with inside of us every single day, right? And they're part of our core four, and they are forces of meaning and motivation. And when I'm in a situation- So let's just go through those a moment slowly.
Bart Egnal: Number one is my needs.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: And so this is... define this for me. What- Yeah. Yeah ... if I was thinking about my needs, what would that, would... is this like the Maslowian hierarchy of needs- no ... or something
Stephen de Groot: else? It's interesting. Maslow I've worked with some folks that work with Maslow as well, so this goes really deep.
Maslow was changing his mind around the hierarchy- ... of values and needs and he was actually starting to look at needs as, as values being a higher source need than needs- Wow, okay ... basic needs. But yeah, but again, all of, all theories evolve, right? We use a lot of theories where I'm sure just prior to the passing of the theorist they were like, oh my God, that's, that's- Right.
not right yet." Wait a second. Nah, bye bye.
Bart Egnal: Revision. Oops, too late.
Stephen de Groot: Exactly, 'cause, I talk about this all the time. But no needs is... you can relate to it. It's biological needs for starters. You're thirsty. You gotta go to the bathroom, right? Those are needs. They don't go away- until they're met. But we also have needs that require fulfilling, like to be in control or to be connected or to have a voice- ... or a choice, right? Some, some agency. So needs are the first that form. Like- Okay ... and they're basic. Then values come out of that. Values are our beliefs. Okay.
What we see as important. The things, integrity, courage, creativity accountability, those kinds of things. And goals are you have them. You have too many of them. I'll tell you right now. You have too many goals. We all have too many goals. And, but they're not all motivating. How
How do you know me so well? Yeah, exactly. It's oh my gosh, right? And goals aren't that... The only time goals are motivating is when they meet our needs or f- are aligned with our values. Okay. And this is a really big piece, 'cause a lot of people say, "Ah, my goal..." It's I think your wife wants you to lose weight, not you.
And this is really important- ... right? Unless your goals align with your core four, be prepared to struggle- ... and possibly fail. And this is something nobody really taught me. And then the other one is strengths. So strengths are the fourth powerful force of meaning and motivation. Those are the things we bring to the table, that when they're enacted or leveraged will help us grow, be successful make a significant difference either with ourselves or- Okay
in our relationships. Yeah. So when you- That's the core four ... when you
Bart Egnal: look at these four, this core four, and like I- ... I know we talked, again in our prep, about motivation and, Yeah ... it's interesting you mention a goal that someone's given that's really not your goal, and then- Yeah
you're, like, beating yourself up 'cause you're not doing... and you describe embracing a positive theory of motivation. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Can you just go into that a bit more, what that means and why so many people take the antithetical approach to motivation? We see it in the corporate world all the time.
Stephen de Groot: Oh, yeah. If we're using in the corporate world a lot of- archaic theories, right? So a lot of the theories are still undergirding a lot of these approaches that consultants are making millions of dollars on and not really making any change. Billions of dollars, right? The idea of motivation, well, think of it, think of when you hear the word motivation.
Let's just start there. It's like the M- the other M word, morale, right? When do you hear the word morale? When it sucks, basically. When it's really good, we're not talking about morale. But as soon as someone at the water cooler goes, hey, Bart, what do you think of the morale around here?"
You probably have a problem. Pretty low, yeah so motivation is the same where it only comes up when it's missing. We look for it when it's not happening, right? And we have a negative connotation around what it means when people aren't motivated. So it's out of the gates, it starts as a negative thing we look for when it's missing.
Versus, as you and I talked about, we're motivated 1,000 times in our lives probably before the first interview that says, "What motivates you?" That interview question. And people are like- Yeah ... "Oh my God, that's such a hard question." But we've been motivated 1,000 times before this moment.
What we weren't taught to do was to pay attention to what was happening during that moment. What needs were being met And what do you mean by that? What needs were being met Ah ... what values were being aligned, what goals were being accomplished, and what strengths were being recognized and leveraged.
And this is the thing I do with a lot of people, from surgeons to F35 pilots to s- still kids in care, is have them think about their greatest day. Right? See, 'cause great moments don't happen by accident. A lot of people say it was the ice cream and hanging out with Bart, but he moved to Australia, so that's over."
And what I say is what need was being met?" Friendship, connection, my need to laugh." And then, "What values were aligned?" Relationships and honesty and-" "... being myself." "What goals were being met?" We were doing something fun, and we did something productive that day.
We moved my furniture." "And then what strengths were being identified?" Once we map that out- ... we start to understand, no offense, Bart, it wasn't about Bart- It wasn't me ... and the ice cream. It wasn't the ice cream. Yeah. No, it was. It was, but it was the meaning within the situation. So leaders often attribute what's happening in the situation.
Stephen's really motivated when he's on floor six." What they don't realize is floor six is where Stephen connects. On floor six is where Stephen gets his needs for autonomy met. On floor six, Stephen loves the carpet, on his feet, but no one knows that, right? So- ... I'm just making this up, but- ... but we've just misattributed why Stephen's motivated, right? So what- We never really asked. Yeah
Bart Egnal: So motivation then really is a product, a by product, of the core four, and hopefully all four, but at least multiple ones- Yeah ... being met. One or more. And then you f- yeah ... One or more, okay. Then obviously the more of them, I imagine you, you can meet simultaneously, the greater the greatest day- Yeah
likelihood- Yeah ... you have. And and yet as you say, most people just look at the outcome, right? And they say, "Oh, that was a good day," but they, you're really, your approach is to deconstruct-
Yeah ... the- Yeah ... needs being met, and therefore kind of work backwards and say, "What, as a person, what needs do I have, and how can I meet them?"
Yeah. Is that right?
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And what's cool is, 'cause this is the thing about happiness, right? And I had a very brief collaboration with Daniel Kahneman the Nobel Prize- ... winner. And, we talked a little bit about regret and happiness, and one of the things I wish I had more time to talk to him about was it's not about happiness, it's about meaning, right?
Happiness is more kind of elusive, whereas meaning- and fleeting ... is deeper. And very fleeting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It is. And again, back to what you were saying about inspiration, inspiration isn't fleeting, right? And if you could... And I think meaning and inspiration are two sides of the same coin.
They might even be- ... on the same side of the coin, because they're deeper, they're lasting, they're impactful, they're energizing, and they usually stay with us a lot longer. And
Bart Egnal: It is amazing too when you look at things that people will do voluntarily for sustained periods of time when they are motivated and inspired.
Stephen de Groot: I mean- And that's why... Yeah. Yeah. Working with kids in care, foster kids working lots with volunteer people, working in systems and b- working with the military and stuff, like, where there's lots of crisis. I've seen places where there's no compensation, there's no values on the wall, there's no, somebody with a whip standing there making people- Right
Count widgets. Yet people are happy, motivated, engaged, showing up early, staying late, going the extra mile. And so especially working with gang members how do you get somebody to s- who's saying, "F off, leave me alone, or I'll hurt you"- ... if you take a step forward, to three days later saying, I'm really glad you came.
I wanna volunteer. I'm sorry for everything I did." And people... This was starting to happen so often, I said we have to go from calling it miraculous to matter-of-fact. 'Cause when we call it miraculous, we freeze it in place as an exception.
Versus if we can do it more often, it becomes matter-of-fact.
And once that happens, then we are less stressed.
Bart Egnal: Okay. So let's- Just generally ... let's dig into that. So let's start from the position of someone listening or someone like myself- Yeah ... saying, what I'm hearing from you is develop self-awareness about your core four. Yeah. So how do I go...
How do you go about doing that? Maybe you could tell me a story y- we've talked about gang members. It's interesting you mentioned- Yeah ... like fighter pilots. One of my first guests- Yeah ... was the Marine who was the first F-35 pilot from the Marine Corps. Okay. And so I'm curious, so how will you work with someone like that to help them understand their core four?
Stephen de Groot: First of all, they're human, right? And what I've learned about high performers is a... An unfortunate thing that happens is that they're often in, in environments where they don't really feel the three great states. Like, when you're- Okay ... competing for a fellowship or you're trying to get one and there, there's 25 of you and there's only one position, right?
And you've gotta... There's all these, these tests you have to do. You can't really connect to what you really need. "I really need sleep," or, "I value seeing my family this weekend, but I gotta study, and I wanna win," right? Or- ... "I've gotta shut this part of my humanness off if I'm going to insert operate on people or insert- have to tell someone they've died." Unfortunately what happens is many high performers are disconnected from their true core four. It... Most CEOs are the ones that like
Bart Egnal: we get- 'Cause they've had to put- they've had to push it away and just focus on the results.
Stephen de Groot: Here's a perfect example.
Now, some parents are gonna feel guilty about this, and I'm gonna tell them in, assuage it in a second. But it's when they're trying to put their chi- child to bed, and their child is scared, so their, the core four shows up earlier. "I need comfort," right? "I need comfort. I value my mom or my dad or my caregiver, and I I want that and I'm getting better at asking for them."
Now, they go... The parent goes into the room and says, "Look, if you can... If you don't call me in here again, and you're able to get to sleep, we'll go play together." So this is, this is- ... the inflection point. This is dislocate from your core four so that- ... tomorrow you'll be safe- You get a prize ... and significant.
Bart Egnal: Yeah.
Stephen de Groot: Versus the other way, which is I'm gonna sit with you, and I know I gotta go onto my iPad, and my boss wants me to return this email before 8:00. Like, all these other things that- ... interfere with our ability just to be present and create the three great states for our children. So again, it happens all the time, but when it happens over a long period of time, you get these high performers that are really good at what they do- but they've dislocated from their true core four. So- So how do you help them reconnect with that? ... they're not sure what they're made of. The best way is to do it in your life, not at work- okay ... especially if you're a higher performer or you've been programmed or domesticated. And to find those moments where you're really happy, like really excited and fulfilled, and it's like that...
kids go, "Ooh," and they can't explain it, 'cause they have no words yet. Those moments, we can stop and ask ourselves four questions, and it's actually so simple- Okay ... it's ridiculous.
Bart Egnal: Okay, let's hear
Stephen de Groot: them. Yeah. Now, the first question is, what needs what needs are being met right now? Now, the f- when you get to needs and it...
you have to be honest. You can't bullshit yourself. Sorry. You can't BS yourself. I don't know if you can bleep that out, but- we could, you could
Bart Egnal: swear in this
Stephen de Groot: podcast. This is- 'Cause we, we tell ourselves all the time. We tell ourselves such crap, right? We tell ourselves about who we really wanna be or what we've told we, we're needed, we need, right?
So what do I need? I need to be liked. I need to be loved. I need... I'm sitting here having fun. I'm the center of attention, or I need to be heard. I need... so what do I need is the first question. What needs are being met- ... right now? Second question: What values of mine are being aligned?
What values that I value, it could be creativity, fun, relationship you name it, right? Integrity. We're all doing the right thing, shared goals. And so what's happening in that moment? And then the next one is what goals of mine... now important goals, not just goals that we were told.
Goals that mean something to me. Is it health? Am I getting healthier? Am I getting, better at something? Am I accomplishing something? And then finally, what strengths of mine are being leveraged right now? Okay So I set this trip up. Those
Bart Egnal: are- I'm organized ... those are tough questions to kind of-
reflect on if you're not in the pro- Yeah ... like if I think about- Yeah ... so for me, I'm a big cyclist. I love to ride. Oh yeah. I ride with my friends. We do-
Stephen de Groot: Yeah ...
Bart Egnal: significant days on the bike, sometimes, you know- Yeah ... 10-hour day on the bike.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Wow. And so these are some, when...
if I'm thinking outside of work, these are some- Yeah ... great moments, right? Where you're, I'm feeling fit, I'm feeling like I'm achieving something, so I'm feeling healthy and I'm feeling connected with people.
Stephen de Groot: There you
Bart Egnal: go. Yeah. And I guess on the values front, then I would say I'm feeling like I'm, it's hard. This is a tough one to do, right? That-
Stephen de Groot: Freedom?
Bart Egnal: Freedom, absolutely. Independence ... what other... Independence. Connection, like pursuing relation- Yeah ... like strong relationships- Yeah ... with friends. Yeah. Achievement as well.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. A bond, social bond- ... an identity with that group, right?
So this is the thing. The reason, what makes it hard, so it's simple, but the process of doing it when we've never been taught to do it- ... makes it hard. But once you do it- ... it's wild. Like I've had people running- yeah ... "what needs to be met?" And they're like, "Shit," they would stop running.
Like I've had people that work for some of my providers- ... that have been doing certain things- Try the process ... for years, and they're like-
Bart Egnal: Yeah ... "
Stephen de Groot: Who am I doing this for?"
And then they realize, "No wonder I'm miserable."
Bart Egnal: I'm not doing it for myself.
Stephen de Groot: I'm not doing it for myself.
And like- ... when you think about- Someone told me to lose weight- ... a lot of the
Bart Egnal: health goals ... so I went running.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. Or why don't you be more like- ... insert whatever- True ... and it just sticks over the years, and before we know it, we've adopted all of these things, and we've dislocated from that force, from that force- that gives us most meaning.
Bart Egnal: So as an individual then, what you should do is go through this process. Start, sounds like start the process outside of work. It's gonna be easier- Yes ... to go through it. And you probably- Yeah ... if I had to guess, you're gonna have to do this m- multiple times to build the muscle to ask- Yeah
yourself these questions and to reflect on this. Yes.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: And then do you go to work?
Stephen de Groot: Yeah no, you, like you could go to work. I say life 'cause it's safer. There's some people that love their work, and start there if you wanna start. I don't wanna dictate where people start. I would say- start somewhere safe, something that's like fun- ... something light. But the other thing is, the other side that you can do, and I don't encourage this, this is a secondary assessment, is when you're frustrated. So when you're frustrated or angry, it's a combination of the two.
When you're frustrated and angry, the opposite of your core four. So your needs are probably not being met.
Your values are being compromised, right? Or something's happening that's rubbing against them. Your goals are being blocked or impeded in some way, or your strengths are being disrespected or unacknowledged.
Bart Egnal: So you can try and pinpoint where that's happening
Stephen de Groot: Yeah, and being honest with yourself is important 'cause, you know- ... especially those caregivers who do a lot of caring for other people, we put our needs on the back burner. We put our, we set ourself aside. We s- "I'm just gonna make a compromise."
And I had that- ... that conversation with high-level physician women leaders this weekend. ... We're talking about how as women, as leaders, as doctors, like, all three of those, they put other people first. So it's not uncommon for them to dislocate totally from their core four, and it's like pinching your oxygen c- Right
Hose, right? It's start feeling- You run out of gas ... a little bit more tired. And if you don't n- ... if you're not aware of this, it's like a carbon monoxide leak. It, it's- Right? And it's subconscious, I don't know
Bart Egnal: why, 'cause... So okay, so then-
Stephen de Groot: Yeah ...
Bart Egnal: so that's the individual.
Now let's shift- Yeah ... to leaders, because-
Stephen de Groot: Okay ...
Bart Egnal: I imagine that it, you, we've talked, we began this discussion around what it takes to influ- or to inspire, what it takes to motivate. Yeah. It's this deeper connection, and you need to have someone whose core four is being lit up ideally. Yeah. So what does that look- Yeah, plugged in, I call it.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah ...
Bart Egnal: plugged in, yeah. So as a- Yeah ... leader, if you look at your team And you want to increase their level of motivation. How should you use the framework of the Core Four to better pursue that?
Stephen de Groot: There's a way of just watching people. Like, when you see people doing well and showing up that's when you, that's when you jump in.
It's... I always say it's like double Dutch skipping, right?
W- we were taught to jump in when the ropes are crossed. We only talk to people- ... when they screw up or when it's not ha- like when something didn't get in on time. It's like the wrong time. It's, the three great states are compromised.
So when people are doing well is the time to say, "Hey, what, what's going on for you? What do you value right now?" What do you need in those moments? Just tell me about that smile when you show up to that meeting with the team," or, "Tell me about what part of your work..." Yeah. My favorite question to get leaders to ask their people is what part of the work do they like the most.
That's it. Does it say... or what could simple path to- Call you deal like the most.
Bart Egnal: Yeah. Different num- And that could cut across all four parts of the Core Four.
Stephen de Groot: You got it. You got it. It usually does. It's because their needs are being met, their values are being aligned. They'll say, I like Sherry."
You'll go, "Tell me about Sherry." And it's like she's on time." So this is like the window into dependability, reliability, consistency. There's your need. So you're like, thinking, you're like I canceled the four of her things abruptly," right? So you start to think, you start to look at, we're products of our environment and our relationships, right?
So if people aren't doing well, like it's probably one of those two things that are- ... not clicking, right?
Bart Egnal: So should you- And then, and try as a leader to almost build a map of your people's Core Four?
Stephen de Groot: Yeah, you can. Yeah, I've got physician leaders who are trained in how do you interview for Core Four?
And we've had one just recently call one of our colleagues, say, "I'm driving all the way back to work. I f- I had coffee with one of my leaders, and I know his Core Four, and I gotta g- ride to the office and write it down." Sh- she's not a, she's not a dictated person. She had to actually go back to the office and write down...
She'd learned some of their Core Four. Some of their values and some of what they needed from work, and it unlocked for her an- ... understanding of why they were struggling, right? And it's it really is a game changer. Once you s- understand, like for me, if somebody tries to offer me money to help, it actually goes against my Core Four.
But if someone says to me, "Stephen, we really need your help," and the next thing they say is how it's gonna make a difference in the life of somebody, I'm already thinking about changing my calendar. If you understand my values is a- ... powerful force of meaning and motivation, you're going to get me motivated.
Quote, unquote. For those who aren't seeing my fingers, quotes, right? Yeah, finger, air quotes. All of a sudden, Stephen is motivated. We'll put that as... We'll do that in our
Bart Egnal: video snippet.
Stephen de Groot: I g- Bill asked him yesterday, and he said no. And here's flash to Bill's conversation. Yeah. "Look, Stephen, it'll be good for your reputation.
We'll pay you," right? Stephen says, "No." 48 hours later- ... Tracy asked me and said, "Stephen, listen, I just, we just need your help. This is really gonna make a significant difference- Yeah ... in the lives of the people in that community." And I'm all, "Tracy, let me see what I can do."
Bart Egnal: I think that's a great example of two different people- Yeah
In that case it's one person, but- Yeah ... you could imagine your, your twin, if you will, who had- Yeah ... the money motivation, and there's nothing wrong with this, just a different motivator, a different value system.
And so the same request has the completely opposite effect to each of you.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. I have a story, like and it, the, I'll give you my most pow- one of my most powerful quotes- Yeah, please ... for this book. And I d- I wrote this book. I hate writing, by the way. I so if people like the book, you're welcome. Enjoy. ... it's excruciating for me. Yeah, is, is- I know
Bart Egnal: what you mean.
I s- I wro- I wrote one book, and that'll be it.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah th- this is probably gonna be the, I, the beginning of a lot. But there's a story in my company and also in another company I worked with where I was spending some time with my son. It was his 16th birthday, took him to Disney, it was like a full four-day, this is- your life, this is your 16th. And it was just him and I, no one else. And I was getting this really important call from someone and they said, "Hey, look, gonna call you and offer you... they're in a, they're in a pinch, and they got a, big, a l- tons of millions of dollars to change this system."
And I just said to my son, I said, "Hey, buddy I'm gonna get a call between these two roller coasters, between The Hulk and Spider-Man." Yeah. And I'm g- it's gonna be quick because I'm gonna say no, and we're gonna move on, right? And I was on the call for about 15 or 20 minutes, and I came back, and I apologized to my son.
And he looked at me and said, "Dad, are you, did you say no?" And I said, "No." He said, "I thought you said you were gonna say no." And I said, "No. Rhonda started with 'We really need your help.'" And I said that, that changed the conversation. It gave her the opening for me to hear what they needed, and we agreed to do it.
And see, that's the difference is understanding someone's core four, and this is one of the biggest things I've ever learned. Your ability, and I'll say it slow, your ability to influence the thoughts, feelings, or behaviors of another person- ... are directly proportional to an accurate and clear understanding of their core four.
Bart Egnal: Makes
Stephen de Groot: perfect sense. That is the biggest- Makes perfect- ... lesson I've learned, right? And so if you wanna inspire- So if
Bart Egnal: someone's not motivated... Yeah ... learn the core four- ... of the people who you wanna reach.
Stephen de Groot: A- and plug them in. Yeah.
Bart Egnal: And plug them in.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. Yeah.
Bart Egnal: So let's- Yeah ... that's a great closing thought, but before, there's one thing I wanna talk about.
So let's imagine you then know, you've done this work for the really key people or groups in your life- Yeah ... who you-
Stephen de Groot: Yeah ...
Bart Egnal: in work or outside, you know their core four. Yeah. You're looking at opportunities to reach them. Now, you also talk about, you gave me three Ps to, once you have that. Promote- Oh
Stephen de Groot: yeah
predict, and
Bart Egnal: prevent.
Stephen de Groot: Tell me about that. Oh,
Bart Egnal: it's so powerful. What... Yeah.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah. Let's go there. It's powerful. The core four is great for influencing, motivating, growing people- ... I love, and my thing is children. I do a lot of work with children's mental health. If we can start somewhere to create the great states to h- you know to tune into someone's core four, it's shaping young humans- right to grow and be their best. But yeah, the, the three Ps, when you know your own core four, this is a... There's so many game changers. This one is the, as we talked about, the three Ps, is once you understand your core four, you can intentionally, you can promote you can predict, and you can prevent. So knowing what I need and value and go, "I'm going into this meeting for a couple hours.
I know that, I can promote it by making sure I set up who's gonna be there- ... that we have a snack. Meet my needs, values, goals. Do we accomplish something?" I can predict look ahead and go, "You know something? My core four is not gonna be lined up there." I can predict this is gonna be a meeting where I need to go for- ice cream with Bart after the meeting. It's the only thing that's gonna get me through, right? To recover. So I don't lose it. Yeah, and then you can prevent. You can literally prevent unnecessary suffering or- ... misattributions happening, knowing that I'm angry because I haven't eaten yet, or I'm, you know- Right
my values are cross-threaded, and not, dumping on somebody for that, right? And just figuring it out. So- or I'm
Bart Egnal: not gonna take that job because it's gonna, it's gonna be misaligned with my core four.
Stephen de Groot: The biggest one being values, and I think that's what's, the, you know- ... we're talking about moral injury now and, moral, demoralization at work, and I think a big part of it is we're working in environments that are not, meeting our needs, aligning with our values.
Bart Egnal: And over
Stephen de Groot: time- All this has to- ... that's just
Bart Egnal: gonna wear you down.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah, and if you don't know about it if you've never been taught it, right- ... it's, it leads to the worst question at the worst time. What's wrong with me? And I'm here, the book is, the book should have been called There's Nothing Wrong With You, but very few people will read that on a plane openly.
Bart Egnal: You are not messed up.
Stephen de Groot: It's not you. Exactly.
Bart Egnal: It's them.
Stephen de Groot: It's not you. There's nothing wrong with you. Yeah. And I think that's the theme in this, is that we're not totally wrong about these big things. We're just slightly wrong enough.
Which kind of keeps us cross-threaded.
And I'm also hearing- If you ever cross-threaded a nut on a bolt, it's goes from a little bit of a nick- ... to outright damage, right? And destruction. A-
Bart Egnal: and I think what I'm really taking away is the need for self-awareness, in these areas. Yep. The need to look at your own core four, what values particular drive you, and the alignment- Yeah
or lack thereof of where you are. Yeah.
Stephen de Groot: Yep.
Bart Egnal: And as leaders, to do the same for the people you want to influence and motivate.
Stephen de Groot: Yeah.
Bart Egnal: And I think that's a powerful way for authentic leadership to take place, true connection with people, and-
Stephen de Groot: Yep ...
Bart Egnal: obviously it takes some work, but nothing worth while does.
Yeah,
Stephen de Groot: it does, it- But I think, yeah, I think though it doesn't take as much work as we think it does. And as a recovering academic, this is what I'm seeing is, it's, we've had a lot of tools and strategies, and then when we come along and go, "Hey, here's a leadership course," or, "Here's a great..."
And you, you- ... you're in the business, right? And people are like, "Oh," they roll their eyes because it hasn't demonstrated an ROI, right? So the first thing to go is leadership training, leadership development, because it really hasn't demonstrated- ... a, a impact, a legitimate impact on the business.
And we're coming along and just saying, "Hey, what if we just slightly did it a little bit differently? Not totally differently, but just a little bit differently." You're already having conversations. You're already, searching for things. Just shift your perspective somewhat, and we get, see really big uptake.
Bart Egnal: Stephen you've shifted my perspective a bit today, which I appreciate. All right. I've learned more than I came for, and it's gonna cause me to do some self-reflection. I hope people listening do, too. So I really appreciate you coming on
Stephen de Groot: the
Bart Egnal: pod.
Stephen de Groot: All right. Thank you very much.
Just thanks for having me, and thanks for doing what you do to, make the lives of other people better. Thank you ... to positively inspire people to be better and do better. There's nothing more important to me. Thank you. So thanks for having me. Yeah.
Bart Egnal: Thank you, and thanks for deepening my my understanding of inspiration, motivation, and how to get there.
So we're- Awesome ... with your book out. We're gonna put a link to it in the show notes. I encourage everyone to, pick up a copy, reach out to Stephen on LinkedIn. It's been great having you on the show, and I wish you nothing but success in what you're doing.
Stephen de Groot: Thank you.
Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire Podcast and the conversation that I had with our guest. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.
I love the comments, appreciate the reviews, and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It's really how word of mouth has spread the Inspire Podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned, we'll be back in two weeks with another inspiring conversation.
Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire
