How to Create Real Buy-In with Your Employees with Dave Garrison

In this episode, Bart speaks with Dave Garrison, Founder and Chief Navigating Officer of Garrison Growth, about his new book The Buy-In Advantage. They explore why employee engagement is at a decade low, the forces driving disengagement, and why it’s critical for leaders to overcome these challenges to build a fully committed workforce. Dave shares practical, no-cost strategies leaders can use to foster authentic buy-in—shifting from “telling” to “asking,” recognizing employees as human beings (not just human doings), and connecting people’s work to purpose and growth. A timely and valuable conversation for leaders at all levels, offering concrete tools to inspire and engage teams in an era when it matters more than ever.

 

 

 

00:37 Show intro
01:14 Welcoming Dave Garrison
01:51 What is a Chief Navigating Officer?
03:14 Dave's career background
04:27 The story of seeing a shaman
05:54 Removing artificial constraints
06:48 Walking out of the corporate world into CNO
07:22 What it was like to leave the job he had
07:53 The business was funded on credit card debt
08:18 How the venture has evolved in the last 10 years
09:27 About his new book
10:59 Creating engagement
11:06 Game-changing orgs always have 3 elements 
11:38 How do leaders build an environment for engagement? 
12:52 What is the buy-in crisis? And where does it come from?
13:49 Gen Z values – money less important, impact with like-minded people
14:59 What's driving the buy-in crisis 
16:17 Two-thirds don’t care about the company 
16:32 The costs of lack of engagement
16:53 Churn is a waste of time and resources
17:49 Are companies just grinning and bearing it with turnover?
19:01 How do great leaders foster buy-in
19:27 Give up on the bully or bribe approach 
20:15 Why can’t people be as enthusiastic about jobs as they are about sports?
20:50 The way the boss sees things is only one way
21:02 Collective genius
21:22 Human beings, not human doings 
22:10 Sense of purpose
22:34 Challenges and opportunities to learn and grow
22:57 Bart summarizes main points so far
23:35 Warning signs that buy-in is not occurring 
26:21 What lets you know this is a great idea?
26:48 Don’t share your idea — share the problem
27:36 Example of Jeff Edison’s leadership
30:16 Ask questions instead of providing answers
32:08 Example of older leaders stuck in ‘answer mode’
34:05 Teachers with right answers 
34:52 Where are we with workforce engagement?
35:21 We’re at a decade-low in engagement 
36:23 Where to find The Buy-In Advantage
37:15 Thank Yous
37:28 Outro

 

Dave Garrison: There's some warning signs that buy-in is not occurring. You would notice, for example, that you have a turnover issue. Even though you pay what you think are competitive wages, you would see key objectives being missed. You would see. People doing exactly what they're asked, but no more. You'd see people unaware or confused about who's responsible for what, and you'd see key customers leaving.

You'd see meetings starting late, or running over or getting canceled at the last minute. Those are all signs of lack of engagement.

Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, bar Deno president and CEO of the Humphrey Group, and if you've ever asked yourself, how can you develop an authentic leadership presence, or how can you tell stories that.

Have people hanging off every word. Well, then this podcast is for you, and it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life.

So my guest on today's episode of the Inspire Podcast is Dave Garrison. Dave and, and I have to say I love the title. You are the first Chief navigation officer I have ever had on the podcast. You are Chief Navigation Officer of Garrison Growth, which is dedicated to unlocking the potential in people and teams.

Dave, welcome to the podcast.

Dave Garrison: Thank you part. I'm delighted to be here.

Bart Egnal: I'm delighted to have you, and I know we're, we'll get into, uh, to what we're gonna talk about, uh, in particular your new book, the Buy-in Advantage, which is really the how of creating engagement. But I think I have to start, I have to say, what is a Chief Navigating Officer and how did you select this title for, for the work that you do?

Dave Garrison: You know, I started, um, this journey after a couple of decades as a CEO with some spectacular wins and some crushing learnings, and I started in working with individuals as a coach. And what I learned was quickly that people think that coaches tell you what to do. And in fact, my experience is the very best coaches and the very best leaders sit beside you, understand what your gifts are, and then work with you on understanding how to show up.

And so I think of that as navigation, navigating the challenges, navigating the opportunities, and that's how I can serve our organization and serve. Um, people at large is by assisting in navigation, people aren't helpless. Hmm. They just benefit from questions that help them navigate.

Bart Egnal: I love it. I love it.

And I I love that you're, that you're sitting with people and helping guide them and, and I think your new book we're gonna talk about. How, you know, how you guide people in creating and fostering engagement. But let, let's roll it back. As you alluded to, you weren't always a coach. You weren't always running a firm helping people unlock potential.

You spent your time in the corporate world. Give us the kind of lightning round of your career and then how 10 years ago you had the career epiphany.

Dave Garrison: Sure. Basically, I started my career in selling advertising in Dallas, Texas, which is very humbling. Because you're selling air and you're selling ideas and you're getting to learn firsthand about the challenges business face, and that was great training.

I progressed up through sales management. I was in broadcast, so station management to corporate kind of management, and then made the leap over to this crazy thing called the internet, which was just beginning. And had the opportunity to grow the first public internet company in the US and in Canada, Brazil, the UK and other places.

And then joined a company that was building out global wifi in public places. Mm-hmm. We were in 55 countries and I've been fortunate enough to be CEO of public companies, private companies, uh, venture backed companies, and learned a ton. And then. At the encouragement of a group of CEOs as part of young President's organization, they said to me, go see the shaman.

Ha.

Bart Egnal: It's of course the na it's the natural next step in a, in a, yeah, career advancement. Go see a shaman. What

Dave Garrison: the national CEO Go see a shaman. I said, of course. Yeah. I said, thank you for that advice. I really deeply appreciate it. And I just ignored them for

Bart Egnal: about a year. What, okay, what, hold on. You gotta stop here for a second.

What is a shaman like who, how did this come about? What were they, what were they recommended?

Dave Garrison: I didn't know what a shaman was. Um, and honestly, by, even when I went to the shaman a year later, I didn't know what a shaman was. And I was pretty impatient because I felt like I was being forced to do that. So I said to the shaman, I said, could you just do your shaman thing?

And, um, the, and we

Bart Egnal: could all just be done with this and I could check this box, right?

Dave Garrison: And a woman looked at me with these steely blue eyes and weathered skin and said to me. Sure. I just have one question and I breathed a sigh of relief and said one question. I've got time for one question. What is the one question?

And the one question I'll never forget, it was simply this, if time and money and resources are unlimited

Bart Egnal: mm-hmm.

Dave Garrison: Draw your ideal life with your non-dominant hand in symbols. And I said, what? And she said, I'll say it again. It's just one question. If time and money and resources are unlimited, draw your ideal life with your non-dominant hand in symbols.

Okay? And basically that question is remove all the artificial constraints that you've created for yourself and free yourself to create what great looks like. Which is one of the questions we have throughout the book is what does great look like? And that was So

Bart Egnal: did you do it? Did you, did

Dave Garrison: you do the drawing?

And what did you draw? I did. It took me six months because I had to unpack all these stories. Oh, I need to make a million dollars a year. Oh, I need to be a global CEO. Oh, I need this. Oh, all not true. And so if you looked at that picture today. Um, my wife and I are holding hands in the center of the picture.

Mm-hmm. Our kids are adjacent and then there are other, there are other activities like sailing and flying and stuff, and I am working with individuals and with teams on unlocking potential and that really set up my vector for. Walking out of the, what is thought of as the corporate world and walking into the world of Chief Navigating Officer, and that was 10 years ago.

And, um, individual coaching at the C-Suite level led me to working with teams and developing more formal programs that teams could apply on their own to unlock potential for themselves as a team and for their organization, which most organizations do not do.

Bart Egnal: When you went through this six month process of drawing with your non-dominant hand Yeah.

And getting to it, what was the, what was the job you left and what did it feel like to make that move?

Dave Garrison: Um, it was scary to make the move because I didn't have any knowledge of who's gonna hire me to do this. I've never done this before. Who would call me? Oh, it must be people I know. It turned out it wasn't people I know.

Necessarily the first clients were all people who had been led to me by word of mouth who said, Hey, you ought to talk to Dave. He's doing this. And so it was humbling, it was scary. The business was funded on credit card debt because I didn't wanna put out cash. And, um, the rest is history. It's been built since there and impacted, I don't know, tens of thousands of lives easily.

Bart Egnal: Hmm. What a, what a big move. Okay. So you, you took this leap into the unknown. And you've been at it for 10 years. Yeah. Tell me what, what the firm, when you founded the firm, what was your intention and how that's evolved in the last decade?

Dave Garrison: Yeah, the intention actually has not changed at all. So our compelling purpose is to unlock potential in people, in teams.

And that has not changed one iota you picked. Well, how we do it has changed. Um, so it is both through training of groups of CEOs. It's working with C-Suites within a company. It's doing workshops. It's working to a lesser extent working, um, directly on personal coaching.

Bart Egnal: Hmm. And in this decade, is it, so just for people listening who, who might not know you or your firm?

Is it you? Is it a group of people? Do you have employees? Do you work with contractors? What's the model you're using today in the business?

Dave Garrison: Yeah, thank you, Bart. Great question. So we have a small team of people that work in both strategic planning with a people orientation. And a group of people who work on leadership development, and those are our two specialties.

So we have a small group of people that work on each and deliver those services, mostly in the US but also around the world.

Bart Egnal: Mm-hmm. And what led you to write a book? I mean, having written one book myself, I think it takes a certain. I know moment of, you know, insanity to say I'm gonna do a, you know, project to create a book.

So what led you to write a book and tell me about the choice you made around topic.

Dave Garrison: So this book, what has taken a couple of different forms, what led me to do it was I, I found that. Yeah. And this is a generalization. Mm-hmm. But often people are oriented towards believing in abundance or believing in scarcity.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's either I've got something secret and if you pay me a lot of money, I'll tell you the secret or it's, look, I'll lay it all out. You can decide how to apply it. Mm-hmm. And if truly the purpose is to, um, unlock potential in people and teams, there's no way, even if I hired a thousand people that we could ever touch.

Enough people. People. And we believe that the message in the model, we've seen it work in a variety of industries across a variety of cultures and geographies. We know it works. So the purpose of the book was really to lay out the model, to lay out the proven techniques based on. Business successes we've observed and share it with the world so you can apply it yourself.

You don't need to hire Garrison Growth. We're delighted if you do, but you don't need to.

Bart Egnal: Hmm. Yeah. So it was a way that to give. Okay. And then you chose this topic of craving engagement. Tell me what led you to choose that with all the work you did around strategy and leadership development. Why engagement?

Dave Garrison: Yeah, great question. So we've, uh, developed a model. That basically says game changing organizations always have three elements always show up in three different ways. One is compelling purpose, understood by everybody in the organization. Two is aligned actions, and that's horizontal alignment, not perfected departments and silos that we see over and over again.

And the third is engaged employees. And we found that there's a lot written about compelling purpose. There's a lot written about aligned actions, although we have slightly different way to do it, but there isn't a lot of work about how do leaders actually show up to build the environment where you allow people to be their very best, where you allow them to contribute the most.

That's not well known, and so we thought that that was a really important topic to share.

Bart Egnal: Yeah, I think it, I, I totally agree. There's a dearth of guidance around how to create that. I think, you know, leaders today more than ever would tell you, look, my job is to create engagement. We know that workers are looking for that from their leaders, and I think in some ways it's, it's a double-edged sword.

It's never been. More of an opportunity, yet never more of a challenge because of what it takes to create engagement, but there's also very little guidance on how to do it. So that's really why I wanted to have you on the pod to, to demystify that and share with people listening, whether they're, you know, running a entire publicly trade company or they're running a new team, how they can create that, that inspirational engagement for people.

So. Let's, I know we can't cover everything in the book, but I know when we talked about the book, there's really kind of, it starts with the fact that we're in what I think you describe as a buy-in crisis. Absolutely. Tell me about like what is the buy-in crisis and where does it come from?

Dave Garrison: The buy-in crisis is occurring because of several shifts that are unique to this point in time.

Okay. One is that as a result largely of the pandemic a couple of years ago. People in the workforce are reconsidering what is the role of work in my life? Mm-hmm. And what am I willing to give up and what am I looking for? So it's true, I

Bart Egnal: mean, just anecdotally, you know, I've been coaching leaders for over two decades, and the number of people now who say I'm just not interested in the next rung in the ladder, it's not worth it to me as sword.

So, uh, does that fit with this kind of pattern that you're describing?

Dave Garrison: Absolutely. Or I'm not willing to commute an hour and a half each way. Mm-hmm. When I'm not in meaningful meetings where I'm just sitting and wasting time or sitting in a cube, it's not worth it to me or a number of other personal considerations.

And it's not all about money. And interestingly, this Gen Z, which is the, um, mm-hmm. Latest generation is the fastest growing part of the workforce. They're the first generation that doesn't lead with money. Hmm. And so the, the question for them is, how can I have. An impact. So how do I have an impact? Looks like a couple of things.

One is doing meaningful work with like-minded people. Mm-hmm. So it's not about the money, it's about doing something that matters. Of course, they want to get paid mm-hmm. With like-minded people. The second is flexibility and where the work gets done. And the third is an opportunity for personal and professional growth.

Hmm. And when those three things are present, gen Z is all in. Otherwise, they always have an eye on what's the next, next opportunity. Now interestingly, most supervisors, most bosses, most. C-Suite people have this belief, which is not correct, that it's all about money, and people will leave for a dollar an hour raise.

Turns out it's not true, but we've been taught that over and over again. So here's what's driving this crisis. One, it's generation Z and their needs are different. Two, it's this. Reflection on work that's different than it has been before as a result of time to reflect. And three, it's the economic gyrations that create widespread uncertainty.

Are we tariffed? Are we not Tariffed? Are Canada and the US besties or not? It's all this kind of un will AI

Bart Egnal: eliminate my job?

Dave Garrison: You know? Absolutely. Will AI

Bart Egnal: transform my job? You know, which it's totally, I mean, we've never, never felt more uncertainty in the workforce than we do today.

Dave Garrison: And so this puts the pressure.

On leaders to carve out the time to consider how do I deal with the need for impact, having voice heard and create a better sense of certainty in the workforce. And unfortunately, most leaders learn how to lead from. The leaders that they have observed, sure. And the leaders they have observed, never had the practical techniques to deal with these issues.

And so we perpetuate an environment where one third of the workforce globally. Don't really care if you, if you, I'm sorry. One third care, two thirds don't care. If you look at the Gallup data, one third are engaged, two thirds are not. What a waste for the company, A waste for the people. They're just showing up.

Mm-hmm. They may be happy, they may say thank you. They may say, oh great, but they don't really care. So what is, what is

Bart Egnal: the cost of this? Because I know when we talked about this, you said the ramifications, the cost of this are, are not fully captured in like a p and l or balance sheet. How are they reflect?

Like where, where are they felt in organizations?

Dave Garrison: Boy, the first place they're felt is in tension. And pressure when a person leaves the company, when turnover occurs, okay, it leaves their work to the people who are still standing, which means they're doing double jobs. Secondly, when a new person comes along, you can't be productive in your own job if you're taking time to train somebody else.

And the third thing is the time spent in recruiting, interviewing, selecting, onboarding. A new person, none of that is reflected directly in a p or the balance sheet, and yet the costs are huge.

Bart Egnal: Hmm. And and do you think now, I mean we, as you pointed out, you know, with COVID that changed a lot. Then we had the great resignation, we had people switching jobs.

Now we have, you know, the economy's slowing a bit. We have these return to office mandates. And anecdotally what I hear in, in companies is people are. More likely to just kind of grin and bear it. What are you seeing in the organizations that you work with? Is turnover down? Are people just more kind of having to focus on their results and not their engagement and, and, um, does that dovetail with what you see?

Dave Garrison: What we are seeing is entirely dependent on how the leaders show up and what is important in the values and the purpose of the organization. So the grin and bear, it is the average organization. And people are grinning and bearing it until they see another opportunity. Hmm. And what the boss thinks, oh, that's another opportunity for more money.

It's actually an opportunity to have impact and do meaningful work and not just punch the clock to get money. Right. To get on with life.

Bart Egnal: So as a leader listening, what I'm taking away and what I think people taking away should take away is that you have the ability, it has nothing to do with the compensation model.

Right. You have the ability to create engagement, and there are things that you can do that will not just kind of make people happy, but connect them to the work, give them purpose, and have them be engaged in what they do. So how do you do it? Let's turn to the, the meat of the book. How do you, as a leader, and how do great leaders really foster this kind of buy-in?

Dave Garrison: Yeah. The, the answer, the answers. Interestingly, cost only, intent and time. They don't cost money. Even though money, money, money, money, money is all are all the measures we get in our p and l and balance sheet. These things don't cost money. It's pretty straightforward. First of all, you gotta give up. You've gotta give up on the bully or bribe approach.

Bart Egnal: Okay?

Dave Garrison: So you can't bully people into engagement, return to the office, or else that's a classic. You will be engaged, right? You will be engaged. Actually, the people do, as you said, as they just show up, grin and bear it. They resent it. And what you get is probably a third of what you're paying for in terms of getting a worker who is fully bought in.

So here's, here's a difference that we make. You've been to a sporting event and you've seen people enthusiastic, whether it's a football game of either kind of soccer or football. Whether it's a, any kind of sporting event, like in the US it's Friday night lights, it's high school football, and people are totally into the game and they're into their friends and they're into the experience.

Totally. How come it's not like that at work? How come those same people drive into the parking lot on Monday morning? They leave all themselves. In the car or at the Metro station and they just show up and say, what do you want me to do? What we have the opportunity to do as leaders is to bring that energy and enthusiasm, all the resources to the workplace to address important issues.

It's like, let's get everybody's best thinking because we've all been down different paths. We all see the same thing differently, and bosses need to accept the fact. That the way that the boss sees a situation is only the way they see the situation, right? Everyone else will see it differently and have different solutions, but we have a chance to tap into what we call collective genius.

That's getting everybody's views. On a situation so we can select from the best. So there are four universal desires that drive most people, but one is money. That's table stakes. We expect to be paid fairly, but that's not enough. That's just table stakes. What people are looking for is being recognized as a unique human being.

So we call this in the book. Human beings, not human doings. I am not an accounts receivable clerk. I am somebody that has two kids that's trying to figure out how do I raise those kids to be good human beings? I'm trying to be active in my church or whatever the it is they're doing. I wanna be recognized as a unique human being.

No cost. Easy to do. So if you say to somebody, how are you? And they say, fine, and you continue on as a leader, you've just acknowledged there are a human doing, not a human being. A human being takes time to understand how are you doing? What are you celebrating? What are you celebrating personally and professionally?

So. The second is sense of community, recognizing them as a human being. A third is sense of purpose. Everybody in the organization has to have a clear understanding of why the work matters. Why does what we're doing matter? And it's never about making money. If it's about making money, we've already lost the game.

What are, what is it we're doing here that's important? And then it's challenges and opportunities to learn and grow. And if people only get the money, which most companies do, then they are just mercenaries constantly looking for higher pay, or more importantly, something that matters.

Bart Egnal: So as a manager, if you want to create engagement, you need to think about four things.

One is money, and in some ways most managers don't select their comp, so that one may be outta their hands, but the the next three certainly aren't. The second one is to be a human being, not just a human doing. Yeah. Third is to have a connection to purpose, why what people are doing matters. And finally, growth, personal growth through the work that you do.

Yes. So how do, how do you go about, let's look at tangibly, someone says, alright, how do I evaluate whether or not my people are getting two, three, and four? And then how should you go about doing it?

Dave Garrison: Yeah, there's some, there's some warning signs that buy-in is not occurring.

Bart Egnal: Yeah. What? What would I notice if my employees are not bothered?

Dave Garrison: You would notice, for example, that you have a turnover issue, even though you pay what you think. Our competitive wages. Mm-hmm. You would see key objectives being missed. You would see people doing exactly what they're asked, but no more. You'd see people unaware or confused about who's responsible for what, and you'd see key customers leaving.

You'd see meetings starting late, or running over or getting canceled at the last minute. Those are all signs of lack of engagement.

Bart Egnal: So, so let me ask you, Dave, 'cause you know, I've, I've run, you know, a company for over a decade. I've, I've coached Leers for, I guess, when, when is it the managers? You know, liability, if you will, or failings maybe is the better word.

Deficiencies. Yeah. In failing to provide those three categories that they, they're able to, they foster engagement. And when is it just the fit's not there? You know, when the eng the employee is not aligned with the work anymore or the stage of their career, um, how do you make that assessment?

Dave Garrison: Yeah, that certainly happens.

But if, if a, if a leader says, Hey, I've got one employee who doesn't seem to be aligned, right? Then you'd say, I have one employee, not aligned. But if you just say, Hey, you know what, I've got a team. I just need to replace my team. These are not the right people.

Bart Egnal: Hmm.

Dave Garrison: And you've got a leader issue, not a team issue.

Bart Egnal: Mm-hmm.

Dave Garrison: And you know, so really

Bart Egnal: depends on the nu the scale. Essentially. If the. It it is. That's this disengagement.

Dave Garrison: But I'll tell you, Bart, having been a leader, I never once woke up in the morning, and I'm sure you didn't either to say, how can I be a mediocre leader today? Or how can I create lack of engagement today?

Bart Egnal: That's

Dave Garrison: right. We just, you just don't have the tool. So let me give you a simple tool. Okay. You know, I'm thinking while I'm mowing the lawn or while I'm raking the leaves, I'm thinking about work in the back of my mind. Mm-hmm. And I might have an inspiration on Saturday or Sunday, and I might wanna come in Monday morning and say, Hey guys, I got an idea.

Why don't we? And then I lay out my idea. Well intentioned happens all the time. Unfortunately. That's a way to create disengagement because you're saying to people, oh, what do you think of my idea? That's not what you think of my idea. That's, do you think my idea is great? 'cause I've already told you it's a great idea.

Right, right, right. So here, here's another way to do that. Okay. So gimme

Bart Egnal: the tool.

Dave Garrison: Hmm. Easy. Easy. So think about what problem your great idea is addressing and think about what lets you know this is a great idea. This idea is great because it met some checklist in your head, and we never rarely lay out what is the criteria or the checklist, what makes it a great idea.

We just blurt out the idea, and so we leave people with no opportunity to contribute. That's just say, yes, boss. Great idea. So here's what you do instead. Okay. Don't share your idea. Share the problem you're trying to address. You know, I've been thinking about the fact that our customers are on hold for too long or whatever the issue is.

Mm-hmm. And then share your criteria for what a great idea looks like. You know what I'm thinking? If we had a great solution, it would be one that everybody would understand. It's easy to implement. It's, and go through your list of what makes an idea great. And then ask people. Will you please spend some time and consider what you think great solutions are?

Bart Egnal: Hmm.

Dave Garrison: And they will draw on their experience and share with you their best thinking. And then together you can select the best idea because you've agreed on criteria.

Bart Egnal: What happens? Can you gimme an example of, of a client you worked with who use this? Approach in the results it led to.

Dave Garrison: Sure. There's a story in the book about an amazing CEO named Jeff Edison who has built up a, um, a very successful business of grocery anchored shopping centers, so a real estate company.

And I was facilitating an offsite for their executive team, and Jeff came in and said, Hey guys, before we get started, um, I'm thinking about adding somebody to the executive team, and I wanted to talk to you about that. And knowing Jeff, I knew he had thought a lot about it. And I said, Hey Jeff, do you have somebody in mind?

And he said, yes, I do. And I said, okay, before you share that name, could you have you given this a lot of thought? He said, yes, I've given a lot of thought. And I said, what did you let do? What did you consider when you were selecting the person? What was on the checklist in your head? And he said, well, it's somebody who's got to work hard.

It's somebody who thinks differently than we do and somebody who has cred in the organization.

Bart Egnal: Hmm.

Dave Garrison: Said that's a great list. And I asked the team, I said to the executive team, what criteria? Take a minute on your own, which is an important part of this process. Take a minute on your own, jot down what criteria you might add.

And they added three or four other criteria. And I said, okay, armed with these six or seven criteria, I'd like you to think about who might be good that meets this criteria that we could add to the executive team. If we were going to add someone, take a minute on your own. They did that. And then I said, shout it out.

And they came up with 10 or 12 names.

Bart Egnal: Okay.

Dave Garrison: And then I said to Jeff, do you wanna share with us? Who you were thinking about and he said, no. I'm gonna think about this some more. Those are great ideas, and I hadn't thought about the additional criteria. And so the premise in the book, which we believe to be true in collective genius, all of us are smarter than any of

Bart Egnal: us.

Hmm. All of us. And did he end up selecting the person he had initially chosen, or did he pick one of the new ones?

Dave Garrison: Uh, no. He actually punted on the decision for a while. The new, the person he was going to select. Um, is still an important member of the executive team. Hmm. And he, he did not select a person right away because he took on board that input.

Bart Egnal: Isn't. I love that story because had he just said, this is who I think we should add and here's why. Everyone would said that makes perfect sense, but instead they provide him with their thinking and it resulted in a better decision.

Dave Garrison: Absolutely Bart. Another example of how leaders for no cost can show up differently and create an environment of engagement is ask questions instead of providing answers.

Bart Egnal: Tell me, tell me more about that. Let me ask you, tell me about this. What does this mean?

Dave Garrison: Well done. So it's actually a chapter in the book. It's ask leaders, ask questions, managers tell. And what I mean by that is how many times does somebody come to you and say, Hey Bart, what do you want me to do about.

And we're trained as a Pavlovian response to say, well, what you ought to do is let me

Bart Egnal: answer.

Dave Garrison: And we feel good about that 'cause we're calling on our experience and we want to be helpful. Mm-hmm. It's from a place of goodness and yet. We're cutting off the opportunity to grow that person. We're cutting off the opportunity to understand their strengths and weaknesses.

An alternative is when they come to you with a question of, what do you want me to do about, it's your opportunity unless it's an emergency. So if there's a fire in the building, do not use this technique otherwise, and there are very few emergencies in business. Otherwise, the leader has a chance to say, what do you think?

Would be a good way to handle this. What are you considering in that solution? What else did you consider? The answer to those three questions will teach you as a leader in their, in the strength of their list, of their problem, solution muscle. Mm-hmm. And when you understand that you can assist them in their own growth and development as opposed to telling them what you would do, they're never gonna be you.

Bart Egnal: Right.

Dave Garrison: They're never gonna face the situations you've faced. So that's useless information. But if people can get away with, oh, you just tell me what to do. Okay. You're just creating right? Disengagement.

Bart Egnal: So Dave, I know you have another great story for us from the book, so give me a, give me an example of when this a leader who used this technique.

Dave Garrison: Oh boy. Um, there, there are so many, it's hard to pick just one. And I'm thinking about, um, I'm not sure which story you're referring to specifically, but I'm thinking about a group of leaders that were 20 years in their position who felt like their job was to give answers and their job all day long was to give answers.

And the old timers refused to change that model. They were stuck. The younger managers. Discovered, wow, my people actually have some better answers than I do, and it shifted the whole model. When leaders believe their people are capable of giving answers, they're more willing to delegate. That makes the leader's job easier.

Bart Egnal: Hmm. And so it's, and so what happened in that example, as they found, as the younger leaders began to tap into their people,

Dave Garrison: what happened was the, the leaders learned what skill development the younger leaders needed, and as they gave them that skill development, they were able to rapidly promote them through the organization, which allows for scaling because many organizations are interested in growth.

And the biggest limitation is people.

Bart Egnal: Hmm.

Dave Garrison: And so if you can grow people by simply asking questions instead of providing answers, you can help grow the organization and make your own job easier.

Bart Egnal: And I'm sure in that story, the younger leaders created a much more engaged workforce. Oh my. And reap the benefits of that.

Dave Garrison: They ate it up bar, it's, they're personally growing. They're being recognized as a human being. It's goodness. Times four.

Bart Egnal: Yeah. I love that technique. And I know. This idea of focus on questions goes again instead of answers, goes against all the instincts, you know? Yes. Very senior people to say, Hey, you know, I'm gonna tell you I'm in.

I'm in charge, I'm in, you know, capital L leadership. But I love it. I love the questions. Think

Dave Garrison: about the years of schooling you went through. You know, there's a right answer and we were trained to memorize the right answer and then regurgitate it for the teacher to get attention. So leaders think that they are teachers and there is a right answer.

The truth is. There's not a right answer, right? There are many answers, and the question is, which one best fits the situation, given our company values, our compelling purpose, and our collective genius?

Bart Egnal: I love it. I love it, and I love that you know, you've, you've shared these two great techniques with us.

All of us are smarter than any and focus on questions on answers. I know these, for those listening are only two, two of the seven chapters you have in the, in the book on how to kind of help people bring their full selves to work. So it's certainly, hopefully this has given everyone listening some tools, but also a, a taste of why they should get your book.

So, Dave, let's, let's wrap up here. I mean, you, you've been in this business. I mean, you've been, you're a corporate executive for so many years, and you've been in your business for 10 years. Share with us and with me some thoughts on where we are at this point in terms of engagement in the workforce and.

What message you'd have to leaders listening on how to contribute to a more engaged world?

Dave Garrison: Yeah, I would. I would observe the data says that we're at a decade low in engagement, meaning people are showing up and being pleasant and doing what they're told, but they really are not bringing their full self to work.

I would double down on the fact that leaders can make the difference. Through no fault of their own leaders are both not being asked about an engaged workforce by their leaders, but secondly, don't have the tools to do it. And so the, the, the tools and using the tools cost nothing. It's about an attitude, right?

It's giving up on telling people what to do and shifting your attitude to engage people. And what happens is. Business results improve. If you want better results, get more people working towards results as opposed to just you and your world becomes easier. Mm-hmm.

Bart Egnal: So it's free, it's doable. It'll be great for your people and you'll be, you'll be happier too.

So. Inspiring. You know, in the time of, uh, of low engagement, you can, you can be the difference. And, and Dave, I'm glad you could come on and share some very tangible things that people can do. Tell us about the book and where they can find it.

Dave Garrison: Hey Bart, thank you for having me. The book is the Buy-in Advantage.

It's available from all of your major book sellers. At Amazon, it's available in Audible. It's available on Kindle. It's available in a hardback edition, and you can learn more@buyinbook.com, B-U-Y-I-N book.com, where we have a free sample download chapter. And in there is an analysis tool that you and your team can take, begin the process of comparing notes.

So the tool is free. Go to buyin book.com and download it. And if you wanna reach out to us, we're at garrison growth.com. And we're, and we'll

Bart Egnal: put links to all of this in, in the show notes, which just make it really easy for people.

Dave Garrison: And just take the first step, just bite off a little chunk. Just change one habit.

Today and you'll see results.

Bart Egnal: I love it. Dave, thanks for bringing the book. Thanks for coming on the Inspire podcast.

Dave Garrison: Thank you

Bart Egnal: part.

I hope you enjoyed that episode with the Inspire podcast and the conversation that I had, uh, with our guests. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational if you're enjoying the pod. I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.

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Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire.